Eris -- Greek goddess of discord and conflict

[David]

Howdy folks,

So, I've been asked to create a write up for a little-known goddess, Eris. She's the deity that set the apple in motion that caused the Trojan War. She has these golden apples and didn't get invited the wedding of Thetis and Peleus...

Anyway, this is my take and I'd love to hear from any of you on what you think

Eris -- LE demi-goddess of discord and conflict
MAJOR: charm, combat, divination, thought
MINOR: protection, summoning, war
ADD: enemies (reverse of friends, useable on others) 1st, dissension's feast and taunt 2nd, random casualty 3rd, suggestion (but only to SUBTLY act contrary to what is normative) 4th, golden apple (causes all to save at -2 or become beligerant in trying to obtain a "beautiful, golden apple") 5th
TURN: no
ARMOR: any
WEAPONS: any
SPECIAL: maybe an ability to incite contrary or discordant behavior?

Thoughts?

[aaronthecow]

I understand why you put LE, but discord and conflict sound pritty CE to me...

for the special maybe 1/day per 3 lvl. force somone to make a save vs. magic or be forced into petty argument?

[Van]

As I understand it, Eris started the strife that led to the Trojan war because of feeling slighted, and her sense of justice (a lawful trait) moved her to do what she did. However, everything else about her seems awfully chaotic. I would actually imagine she's chaotic neutral with evil tendencies, because she does seem to have a thirst for human bloodshed. Being chaotic would grant her priesthood access to the Chaos sphere, which I think would make a lot of sense.

[aaronthecow]

actualy the chaos sphere would be perfect!

I don't rele think that she is chaotic netural tho, defenetly evil

[David]

So, in thinking of alignments, let's look at what Eris did and compare it to KNOWN alignments.

What would Daffy Duck do if insulted and not invited to a party? Yeah, exploding cigars and maybe get the big, brick-colored hairy guy to beat 'em up, but certainly NOT start a war. Okay, she's not CN then...

What would deranged serial killer do? Yeah, personally torture and torment the individuals without mercy since she is vastly more powerful. Okay, she's not CE then...

What would a devout Nazi do? Get the person back by starting trouble using the agreed-upon social system, such as debts, obligations, and involvement of others through manipulation (oh, Hera, Athena, and Aphrodite, which of you deserves this apple? *blink, blink, innocent look*). Oh, wait, that's what Eris did do...she could have been much more "hands on" but that would have "broken the rules" (gods aren't supposed to mess with mortal overly-much -- not CHAOTIC Zeus, Apollo, and Poseidon break that but the other gods do not except to help heroes).

That's why I made Eris LE. But, I would be willing to change her for a good argument. Also, the Greeks saw Eris as a DIFFERENT manifestation of War. She was not Just War for the protection of self and kin (Athena). She was not Bloodthirsty War for the sake of killing others (Ares). Eris was Petty War or War from Bickering/Bitchiness, like a war because your neighbor's kingdom keeps hunting all the deer or making annoying political comments -- it's not really just, but it is not without some basis or some cause-and-effect.

Whaddya think?

As for Aaron's suggestion, what about Disharmonius Word x1/day that works like the opposite of Joyous Word (all who hear it make a save each round or ANYTHING sets them off -- once the save is made, the "madness" passes, although battle may already be joined -- too late for you!)?

[David]

Oh, yeah, and I did give her a couple of spells from the Chaos sphere, but only those that "cause trouble" but none that are "helpful through chaos".

[Jenn G]

"Strife whose wrath is relentless, she is the sister and companion of murderous Ares, she who is only a little thing at the first, but thereafter grows until she strides on the earth with her head striking heaven. She then hurled down bitterness equally between both sides as she walked through the onslaught making men's pain heavier." - Illiad - Sounds CE to me...

[iroxinping]

She is much more fun and cuter in the POEE. And in the books by Robert Anton Wilson. Less evil more chaos. Uses drugs and sex and chaos/confusion to convert others.

Would someone have to be CE to be a worshiper or could they be CG? or TN?

If someone thinks that it's OK to do evil if the final product is good what alignment is that? (I thought TN, or CG?) And isn't the final product different in everyones eyes? I mean if you're a follower of Eris and they convert that's Good. If you're not then???

Maybe my question should be more along the lines of this. Taking the nazi example. The people at the bottom that were following their leaders and superiors. They didn't do it because they were evil. They did it because they thought it was best and someone with more knowledge than them was telling them it was good. Would they then be LG but following a LE person unknowingly? If the goddess was good at deception and chaos couldn't any alignment then follow her and be blind to the reality?

Would it be considered evil to give mind altering drugs to people without their knowledge then try to convince them that eris is the goddess they should be worshiping using circular arguments and sex? Because if she is the best of the gods then wouldn't it be good? If a bit chaotic

Guess I'm wondering if the characters of believers need to be the same alignment as the goddess they worship and how far can one push alignments with chaos as a large factor.

[David]

Ah! A question of philosophy! ;D

A couple of quick things to "level the playing field" with respect to culture. Today, we all live and pretty much take for normative a post-Modern, pluralistic, multi-cultural universe where reason and science are generally the final authority. In other words, even for most people of a highly-religious bent, if something in their faith is not rational and/or compatible with a clinical, analytical, cause-and-effect version of reality AND THEY RECOGNIZE THIS FACT then they will often "drop" that portion of their faith -- evolution is an example for Christians while blood sacrifices is an example for Jews. Moreover, we GENERALLY believe in objective reason even in subjective fields like religion -- even the most "out there" New Age Wiccan or charismatic-following, evangelical Christian will probably look askance at someone who "drinks blood" or insists the world is flat on just the word of a vision or respected cult leader.

Dnd characters don't quite share this worldview with us.

Heck, the average Dnd character is convinced that many races are evil "cuz that's the way they are" without regard to the influence of culture (like the LG orcs of Eon). Yes, in my world, there are a few examples which shatter this stance, but VERY few PCs have ever had the occasion to encounter these exceptions. At the same time the conventional wisdom (and the same lack of logic-based power of society to control their environment) that tells a person it is DANGEROUS to wander the woods at night (because of werewolves, vampires, undead, and orcs as WELL as brigands, thugs, and no-good trouble-makers) is the SAME cultural "voice" that says "all orcs are evil", "all necromancy is bad", "making a deal with a fiend is ASKING for trouble", "gravity works", "Greeks [if you're not one] are self-important weenies", "Norse [if you're not one] are violent powderkegs", "Egyptians [if you aren't one] are full of themselves", "don't tease big dogs, especially if they're not on a leash", "evil people will hurt you for the fun of it", etc. In a world with magic and gods, Evil is a TANGIBLE force which the GODS have defined a certain way. These guys also defined gravity, motion, the seasons, etc and no one questions THOSE...!

'Nuff said?

So, hopefully, we all agree that for a Dnd universe to function (at least one with gods, spells, magic, and undead) then evil must be a TANGIBLE and REAL force, rather than a purely culturally-constructed concept with lingering arbitrary features aimed at community survival and possibly group-conformity (*ahem* NOT post-Modern *ahem*).

Check.

Thus, we are all within the intersection of the realm of philosophy and the realm of religion now, with culturally defined elements coloring issues. Thus, if a given culture worships a deity and simultaneously defines that entity and their actions as good or bad (barring trickery on the part of the deity which usually leads very quickly to an outside influence, such as the rest of the pantheon, "correcting" things), then that matches what Good or Evil really is. This is an important point in a cosmos with REAL gods who REALLY show up, knock heads, and correct mistakes. While small matters of dogma might slide, mistakes in a worshipper's fundemental definitions are liable to be corrected quickly so they don't spread to the rest of society on a larger scale. I mean, even in myth, Zeus does NOT take kindly to being lampooned and similary would use his resources (usually mortals, but if it went on long enough, lighting bolts) to "correct" someone spreading rumors or interpretations big Sky Daddy wasn't cool with. There are a zillion myths along these lines already and you may recall the greatest crime for the Greeks was hubris (equating yourself with gods and trying to use purely reason to call the gods' actions on the "ethical carpet" -- poor Midas; he could have been me having this discussion with Apollo...!).

"But wait, David, aren't you then saying that Good and Evil are then divinely-created intangibles, enforced by a bunch of deities in need of self-examination and therapy!?!"

Sorta, but not really. The Olympians aren't the only pantheon; their is a WIDE variety of deities who COLLECTIVELY define what Good and Evil are, and who, much like modern post-Modernist, wind up distilling a list of actions into various categories such as "objectively Good", "Good in most contexts, but influenced by culture", and "totally a cultural issue, so whatever the culture and/or gods say is good is good (notice, no G)".

Example:
* Killing an innocent without cause or prevocation is Evil in all cultures
* Enslaving someone is evil in Oerdian culture but justifiable for some Egyptians or Norse or even Greeks
* Eating fish on Fridays is TOTALLY up to what a given god tells his/her/its worshippers (and whether you're a worshipper or a fish!)

And, yes, this means that rape is conflated with "ravishing sex" for Greeks (and therefore NOT a big deal) while premarital sex for Egyptians is kind of encouraged! Such issues are cultural rather than ethical. That's a good way of looking at it, in fact.

There are actions that are ethically (objectively) Good or Evil. You can't argue or debate them -- you just accept such reality like you accept gravity, life-and-death, and time.

There are ALSO actions that are culturally (subjectively) good or evil. You can debate their merits til the cows come home and build McDonald's stands -- if you're part of the culture, you're going to probably see it one way and if you're not, you'll see it another.

In between, there are those that have an ethical component, but culture might indicate strong exceptions (rape, slavery, pre-marital sex, homosexuality, etc).

PHEW!

Okay, NOW I think with those preliminaries done, we can talk about the merits of this issue with the right mindset...

"Ends justifying the means" tends to be indicative of either desperation or insincerity. Unless a cleric thought "the end is VERY near" then lying about dogma is not cool and not justified. Of course, yes Andy, a dog (or god) of mischief might see things differently, but only because Erevan-er-the deity supported experiential revelation of the breaking of cultural norms so as to avoid societal stagnation. In the GENERAL case, however, "means" should not be compromised for "ends"; paladins will not slaughter children to make sure they don't grow up evil (unless the paladin believed in a biological predisposition [orcs] and had no experiences to contradict this -- and for someone with powers-from-faith, there should be OTHER consequences from PTSD to insanity to loss of faith if the paladin isn't VERY careful in such instances).

So if trickery is a theme of a faith, the the faithful better be chaotic since that's the only alignment compatible with on-going trickery, even if the goal is "redemption through trickery". Or, in this case, discord is the theme. Discord does NOT lead to harmony, so alignments that are pro-harmony will have trouble -- not LG, LN, or even NE for sure. This, actually, is the best argument for saying Eris is not lawful, BTW. I made her lawful cuz she only messes with folks for a reason -- if she were CE, she would active go LOOKING for trouble to cause.

So, Eris is probably becoming NE. I have trouble with CE because she just doesn't go LOOKING for trouble like a CE does. That's an important point; she only starts being bitchy once someone does something else. True, she ADDS to the fire (and that's what discord is about -- maintaining and escalating problems) but she doesn't START things. And there is some play in there too. As result, I would say N, CN, NE, and CE are all acceptible alignments for clerics. Only the MOST dogmatic (and usually lawful) of faiths require a complete ethical lock-step between cleric and god (examples include Athena, Lendor, and Primus).

Now, if you're drugging people and tricking them with sex, then you're probably chaotic. Like I said, conversion for its own sake is hard to justify unless you're okay using people. There was a Sage Advice when I was a teen with the example of a paladin with a ring of regeneration. He would find the most evil person in a town, put them in a wrestling hold, slip his ring on their finger, and take a razor-sharp spiked gauntlet across their face until they converted to LG! The editor's answer was the paladin was now LE forevermore. Even to save the evil person's soul, torture is not allowed. That the inquisitors did it only shows some of the falacies in that faith and/or psychological and ethical issues the individual inquisitors should have worked through!

As for the Nazi, he he he, this happens to be a topic I know a little about. The German population at large really did NOT know what the Nazis were doing and generally were fantastically revolted when they did find out; the cultural scars remain until the present. Those workign with the Nazis without huge biases already (regretably common since the Middle Ages in Europe was the conception that Jews, Gypsies, and Queers are truly sub-human -- unfortunately, the Gypsy issue survives to today...8-( ) often did have problems with orders, but were faced with death-for-treason and doing the "job". Some fled, with or without their families, while others became "victims" themselves for their strong-ethics/"weakness". And there are those who tried to work within the system to make it better, like Schindler or the various groups who tried to kill "Uncle Adolf".

But none of this matches a cleric (someone "in the know") willingly messing with someone in order to trick them into believing something that they wouldn't follow without subterfuge.

You could similarly reference the origin of the original assassin's cult (the Hashishin) -- the legendary use of drugs to trick the nascent-assassin into believing they were in Heaven, brain-washing, etc. But THIS version of the cult is viewed as generally LE while the real movement ultimately becase the first Shi'ite state, the Fatimid Empire, who ushered in a golden age for the Muslims. Something doesn't add up, given that their leader actually EXECUTED his sons for drinking...! You can construct a situation where an INDIVIDUAL might do something "wrong" with a false justification, but it either falls apart or is shown to be fiction when brought to the large scale.

Does that all make sense? I would love to continue this, but should get back to work. If you're unconviced, please let me know -- I'm more than willing to see another side to this issue, but so far, I remain unconvinced...

Thanks,
David

[iroxinping]

I think she should be CN. not NE. My only reason is that the focus isn't really on good or evil with her, but on chaos. She does the same things to both the good gods and the evil ones. She likes causing trouble with both. If that means messing up the evil gods plans, then she does it. If that means messing up the good gods plans, then she does it. I guess she could also be CE or CG with giant tendencies to the opposite side, but isn't that kinda what CN is? or am I wrong?

[aaronthecow]

CN is more random and not as distruction and vicous revenge oriented

[Jeff]

Well, you show how she doesn't focus on good or evil, just creates chaos. This actually points towards chaotic evil, cuz evil doesn't always work with good. This is just chaos for chaos's sake.

[iroxinping]

thats what I'm talking about. Chaos isn't evil.

If your CG you do good things and ignore rules, do as you feel as long as its for the best. That type of chaos isn't good or evil just not lawful. What you are aiming for is good.

If your CE you do evil things and ignore rules, do as you feel best suits you, and go out of your way to kill some innocents along the way. This chaos isn't good or evil either. The outcome is evil.

But if all you want to do is create chaos. You don't actually care about who it effects. You aren't focusing on destruction. You aren't focusing on creating anything good. You just want to mess up everyones plans. You aim isn't evil, it's not good. Just chaos.

When she tossed the apple in the room and started the Trojan war. Her goal wasn't starting the war. Her goal was to make those three other goddess's fight each other over the apple. Not because she wanted to create something evil or good. Just because she was hurt and wanted to create some chaos. It might have started the war, but it wasn't her intention. Doesn't intention decide if someone is evil or good? Or is it the outcome from the acts one does?

I think she should be CN

[David]

You make a good point, David, about intentions and outcomes. You're right: it's someone's intentions that define the ethics of their actions, not the outcomes. You can to do good deeds and help someone all you want, but really only make things worse. For instance, the boy scout code of conducts is basically LG. Now, if a boy scout happens to lead a little old lady across the road while a drunk speeder comes down the street. The alchy nails them both with his rustbucket mustang, killing the old biddy. The boy scout still did a good act (helping a helpless old bag); it wasn't his fault that a CG loser chose to ignore the law against driving while inebriated...he just wanted to pick up his little girl from school cuz she was crying after the champion of Eris, MarySue, told her best friend some nasty gossip...8-P

*chuckle*

So, Eris as CN? Hmmm...she definitely has a meaner streak than most of the other CN gods and goddess that I can think of, such as Erevan Ilserie, Poseidon, Pan, Ull, or even Aegir. She does remind me a bit of Nergal (CN with NE tendancies). How about CN with CE tendancies?

[iroxinping]

sounds good to me