Lovecraftian Cultist

[aaronthecow]

It has been on my mind for quite a while as to how it would be appropriate to have a priest of a Cthulhuian God; would they be a witch or a cleric? what spheres would be appropriate? ect. In my collective musings with my uncle, my friends, and wikipedia, this is the general idea I have come up with. It would be much obliged if I could get feedback, ideas, and critiques from everyone, so here it goes.

Lovecraftian Cultist
Working Name

Just as a Cleric worships orthodox gods of legitimate power, Mystics worship their own creations and interpretations, Druids worship nature and the deities that represent it, and Witches worship unorthodox powers that are not supposed to be worshiped, Lovecraftian Cultist are the profane worshipers of alien and immensely powerful beings, whose very nature causes insanity and unimaginable horor wherever their influence touches fragile mortal minds.

This class should require stats of similar difficulty as the Druid, however i have yet to figure out what would be appropriate. I think maybe something involving the three mental stats to represent the connection to psionics that the Cthulhuian gods have, and/or maybe constitution to represent the strain that otherworldly energies have on the body. Also, each god may have its own unique requirements. What should happen for races? I can't imagine Cthulhu being especially racist, but I can't exactly imagine a dwarven worshiper of Hastor. Need some help here.
EDIT: 13+ int, 14+ wis plus one more based on god

The relationship between a Lovecraftian Cultist and her god is a very complex one, as most of the gods are unimaginably powerful in addition to sleeping, bound, and/or entirely uncaring about mortals, though there are a few notable exceptions. It is because of their immense power that individuals are drawn to worship them, even though the act can be quite dangerous. The gods allow their power to be siphoned and used by these worshipers so that they may continue to spread chaos and insanity throughout the world, usually bringing them closer to the universe we know and love. It is because of this that Cultists of the Great Old Ones don't have the same requirement to their deities and dogmas as a regular cleric, making their relationship in many ways similar to that of a witch. It is also because of this relationship that the alignment of the cultist is able to be varied from that of their god.

The idea behind this is to make the class playable without having to be an evil insane cultist trying to destroy the world. Also it makes the magic more of a(n evil) tool, similar to arcane magic (specifically necromancy) or witchcraft, as the flavor is in the books.

These cultists, surprisingly enough have the most in common with the nature and balance loving Druids, using the same experience and spell progression charts as them. Though the similarities are not obvious at first glance, the Worshipers of the Great Old Ones and Nature are quite similar. Both of their belief constructs are more ancient then the modern religions that are most common in Oerdian society. In addition, the fast progression of Druids is matched by the rapidly increasing power that can drawn from the alien horors that lie sleeping.

Because of the alien energies that are channeled through their body, Worshipers of Lovecraftian gods gain +2 on their saves vs. insanity and another category based on the god that they pledge their allegiance to.

At first level, the strain and difficulty of calling on the powers of requires that the cultist only cast in cloths that a mage would be able to use her spells in. Similarly, though the Old Ones don't care what weapons their cultists use in combat, but the time needed to master the powers of the Old Ones, so the Cultist is limited to only the weapons that a mage could use at first level.

At third level, in the same manner as a druid, the cultists powers grow. Having more experience with divine spell casting at this level the cultist is aloud to call down their spells in any armor. In addition to this, their god shares dark and powerful knowledge with the cultist, giving her the ability to cast spells as an alienist (see Spells & Magic), one per day per spell level up to one less than the max divine spell level possible. The cultist's god gives her the first spell for each spell level, based on the god's portfolio from the PH or UA (with the chance of insanity included BWAHAHAHA!.. achem). The cultist can also attempt to learn one more every level (like a mage, but with alienist), though only spells ok'd by the DM for her god's portfolio. This ability requires the cultist to take notes for spells like a low level witch; however, if the cultist learns Read Magic, they may use a spell book as a mage. These semi-arcane spells require that the cultist not be wearing armor to cast them.
SUBJECT TO MAJOR CHANGE and will be cleaned up to make more sense. Will keep the idea of gaining mage spells and insanity.

Again at seventh level, the cultists powers explode. The cultist is able to research and then ask their god for appropriate "alienist" spells. Unfortunately, doing this requires the cultist to roll for insanity once for the creation of the spell at +1 spell level, and for understanding the spell at +1 spell level. In addition to this, the cultist gains the power to do something really cool but dangerous. As you may be able to tell, I don't know what this is, but it may include the illusionist spells Minor Creation (4th), Major Creation (5th), Limited Wish/Alter Reality (7th). I honestly don't know.


So thats that. Now imma give an example of a write up of a god with explanation of my reasonings,also I will give an explanation of how I think spells should work. I'm sorry if this work loses quality as I am getting quite tired.

If you want to see how I came to this, read the story: en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nyarlathotep
and his wikipedia article in general: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyarlathotep

If you haven't read the story I sugest you do as it is quite good.

Nyarlathotep
CE Lovecraftian messenger god of maddness, sweeping changes, manipulation, and mobs and other "fun stuff"
Cultists: CN, CE, NE
Major: Charm, Thought, Cultist
Minor: Chaos, Time
Limited Minor: Healing, Evil, Travelers, Sun(reg and reversed)
Alienist Spells: Charm spells, Change Self, Polymorph Self (more also, just suggestions`)
Undead: Need Help as talked about before
Symbol: Sky with Darkness creeping over it, Handsome Pharaoh
Must have 13+ Chr

Limited Minor would be spheres that are limited similarly to healing for Druids, these should probably be written up in a limited form like the druid spheres, but that is for another time. The Cultist sphere is like the druid sphere and would include weird spells appropriate only for Cultists. Alienist Spells are a suggestion as to what spells the Cultist should get starting at 3rd level.

The idea that I had for spells would be that the divine spells for the Cultist would be mostly poor, as they would have many spells removed, and very few new ones added in to replace them. To replace this, much of the "pantheon" has strange spheres and the Cultist gets access to Alienist spells.


Another strange thing about having Lovecraftian horors in a D&D campaign is how they fit into the cosmology, which already has many things. How scary are aliens when embodiments of evil come and vist from entirely different universes all the time? Whats the cosmological difference between a Byakhee and a Mindflayer? The magic in the books is also doesn't quite fit into the D&D perception of magic either, leading to this weird class in the first place.

Well I'm rambling so, might as well end it here.

TL;DR

• +2 save vs. insanity and something else by god
  
• mage armor and start with limited weapons, but can grow out of it
  
• @3rd Gain 1 spell/spell level up to (divine spell level -1) level spells w/ insanity chance
  
• @7th Can research spells and _________
  

I need help with:

• stat/race req.
  
• effect on undead
  
• 7th level power
  
• weapon restrictions
  

EDIT 1: Changes based on discusion on Undead
EDIT 2: Cleaned up a bit

[Andy]

I actually have a low-mid level cleric of Azathoth named Twix that lives in Greyhawk. My original character concept was to leverage two different phrases in the DMG,
"all clerics of Azathoth are insane"
"the insane may not be psionically attacked"

Therefore, he'd be immune to psionics. Obviously, both the psionic and clerical modifications obviate these suppositions, and it's doubtful David would have ever let me take advantage of them, but it was fun for a bored college student. And he's been pulled out of alternate timelines as an excellent supervillan...which is cool.

So - about this idea in particular, I think I'd look at where the differences between such a cultist and a real cleric might be. But for the lovecraftian point of view (which I admit I don't know that much about) I'd say

- stat / race: probably rather high wisdom (think mental strength), but nearly anything else should work.
- undead: were there even any undead in those stories? I don't think any of those gods dealt with undead at all, which means no influence
- high level spells: maybe add a few odd ones, but the existing higher level cleric spells are pretty prevertable.
- weapons/armor: well, they wouldn't have any restriction for the 'let no blood' excuse of typical good clerics. I'd almost say nearly anything should be okay. For armor, I can't see any real reason to limit things other than play balance...maybe just say no plate to that end.

I'll think about it some more...

[David]

Wow, Aaron! This is TOTALLY cool! I am VERY impressed! I think your use of logic and creativity are AWESOME!

Let me try and make a few quick suggestions -- I'm running late, so I'll write more detail later.

Stats: 13+ wisdom (or so) to reflect the force of will needed to study the strange stuff this includes without losing one's mind. ALSO 13+ intelligence to reflect these are strange, arcane, and mind-bending studies not suited to most people. This fits with the witch-like nature of the class AND the studious tradition to learn new spells.

Druid spell progression and a druid version of a collective spell list are in order. Like druids, I'd say CLW should be 2nd (and probably CAUSE light wounds only!). Add some cool weirdo spells to that too. Definitely throw in a few spells from thought and numbers...!

I would say no to undead. Yeah, they don't really show up in the myths and the gods aren't evil like a demon, but totally beyond morality, so I can't see influence over undead being reasonable. Similarly, their minions MIGHT not eat a worshiper, but then they might just cuz, so no "replacement" for turning...

I love the alignment idea...!

I would say NO ARMOR for the same reason that mages, sages, and lore masters don't wear it. The Cultist is too busy running around library learning the secret meaning of Kaballistic letters (uh, oop! to practice melee combat. This would be comparable to clerics of Thoth or Boccob or Isis or other "mage-like" deities. I wouldn't remove this restriction either.

Weapons are different. I'd maybe start with "one-handed" weapons or some other slight restriction but then allow anything else to be learned in the future. It's not an ethical restriction but rather a practical one -- most nerds don't have time to learn to be good with girls cuz they're too busy reading and nerding out. The same applies to creep cultists (with both girls and armor and weapons). But with time and practice, the cultist has no restriction on learning odd stuff.

I'm not sure about the alienist spell addition. I'd want to research that more. A few mage spells are okay (and I *LOVE* the insanity check for each one!) but we want 'em to stay more cleric than mage, right? Oh, yeah, and with the 1st, 3rd, 7th progression...I see what you did there...

[aaronthecow]

Gahh, not only did I not see your post at first, Andy, I just lost my message, sorry if this is super late.

I actually have a low-mid level cleric of Azathoth named Twix that lives in Greyhawk. My original character concept was to leverage two different phrases in the DMG,
"all clerics of Azathoth are insane"
"the insane may not be psionically attacked"

Therefore, he'd be immune to psionics. Obviously, both the psionic and clerical modifications obviate these suppositions, and it's doubtful David would have ever let me take advantage of them, but it was fun for a bored college student. And he's been pulled out of alternate timelines as an excellent supervillan...which is cool.

So - about this idea in particular, I think I'd look at where the differences between such a cultist and a real cleric might be.

Never noticed that line about immunity to psionics, sounds like fun >
When I talked about this with Uncle David Twix did come up, Uncle David said that he needed a legitimate god of chaos, so he used Azathoth, which sortof throws a wrench in my definition (damn you Uncle David for not predicting this event! =P), but I think I have an excuse for how it works. I would say the most obvious difference between a Lovecraftian God and the gods that are worshiped in a stereotypical D&D universe is anthropomorphism.
All D&D gods either resemble humans, or at the very least a animal in the humans culture while the Cthulhuian gods aren't based off of the life that is present in our ecosystem, but distant and weird alien life with any similarities being completely coincidental. As with any good rules there are few exceptions, one being Ghaunadaur. The real explanation is that the EEG is made to be in the evil unknown alien horor niche that is also occupied by Cthulhu, the in universe explanation would be that he is a weird dude, but he's our weird dude. He was made by Istus, making him legitimate no matter how weird he is. The next is Nyarlathotep who is described as a handsome pharoh. The thing about him though is that this is simply on of the endless forms that he takes, and he likes talking and having fun with "lower life forms" as apposed to most gods, who are simply super duper powerful. Finally we come to Azathoth. The recon that I'm going to use is that he is powerful and somehow has been worshiped enough on Oearth to gain legitimacy. This is also the same thing that Uncle David did with clerics of Orcus as opposed to witches.

But for the lovecraftian point of view (which I admit I don't know that much about) I'd say

- stat / race: probably rather high wisdom (think mental strength), but nearly anything else should work.[/blockquote]

Agreed, only problem for balance, continuity, and game logic it would make sense for more stat requirements to exist and I have no idea what those should be.

- undead: were there even any undead in those stories? I don't think any of those gods dealt with undead at all, which means no influence

I can't think of any time they were directly in a story, but the intro adventure for Call of Cthulhu has a man who turned himself into a Ju-Ju zombie, so it fits with the feeling, but you're probably right that they shouldn't have controll.

- high level spells: maybe add a few odd ones, but the existing higher level cleric spells are pretty prevertable.
- weapons/armor: well, they wouldn't have any restriction for the 'let no blood' excuse of typical good clerics. I'd almost say nearly anything should be okay. For armor, I can't see any real reason to limit things other than play balance...maybe just say no plate to that end.

I'll think about it some more...

The idea behind weapons wouldn't be a dogmatic limitation, but a limitation based on training at 1st level, which means that in the future they can learn them. I think Uncle David has a good idea for it below that I'll use. As to armor, once again it wouldn't be a limitation because the gods don't like it, but more of a limitation because of the arcane caster-ee vibe that is present in the books and the class itself and game balance.



---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now for Uncle Davids post...

Stats: 13+ wisdom (or so) to reflect the force of will needed to study the strange stuff this includes without losing one's mind. ALSO 13+ intelligence to reflect these are strange, arcane, and mind-bending studies not suited to most people. This fits with the witch-like nature of the class AND the studious tradition to learn new spells.

I think int and wisdom are appropriate, however i do feel like something more should be required for balance (Druid, Ranger, Paladin, and Illusionist required high stats which fits with the idea that most people are the base classes), but maybe this "extra" hardness which can be on a case by case (god by god) baseis for the priest.

Druid spell progression and a druid version of a collective spell list are in order. Like druids, I'd say CLW should be 2nd (and probably CAUSE light wounds only!). Add some cool weirdo spells to that too. Definitely throw in a few spells from thought and numbers...!

My thoughts on the light, serious, and critical issue of heal/harm spells were that they should get VERY MINOR healing and no death. The reasoning behind this is that many Cthulhuian creatures and gods are described or inferred to be able to regenerate, meaning that their priests should have one way to heal at least themselves. As to death, though I could see Cthulhu eating someone (Combat), Raping their mind (Thought) or bringing minons to eat them and rape their mind (summoning), I can't see him taking someones life force, ripping out their soul, or bringing someone back to life like I could see Hades, Odin, Hel, ect. doing. Though there is the quote, "That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die"...

As to the reason I gave Nyarlathotep evil was because he is the only god described as being able to be mistaken for a human (because of his actions and appearance) and is described as reveling in torturing and driving mortals insane.

I would say no to undead. Yeah, they don't really show up in the myths and the gods aren't evil like a demon, but totally beyond morality, so I can't see influence over undead being reasonable. Similarly, their minions MIGHT not eat a worshiper, but then they might just cuz, so no "replacement" for turning...

I would say NO ARMOR for the same reason that mages, sages, and lore masters don't wear it. The Cultist is too busy running around library learning the secret meaning of Kaballistic letters (uh, oop! to practice melee combat. This would be comparable to clerics of Thoth or Boccob or Isis or other "mage-like" deities. I wouldn't remove this restriction either.

Weapons are different. I'd maybe start with"one-handed" weapons or some other slight restriction but then allow anything else to be learned in the future. It's not an ethical restriction but rather a practical one -- most nerds don't have time to learn to be good with girls cuz they're too busy reading and nerding out. The same applies to creep cultists (with both girls and armor and weapons). But with time and practice, the cultist has no restriction on learning odd stuff.

Fine with all of this, will make the changes for undead unless someone else has something to argue. It sounds like weapons and armor is still a bit up for debate, so lets see if anyone else has anything to say about it.

I'm not sure about the alienist spell addition. I'd want to research that more. A few mage spells are okay (and I *LOVE* the insanity check for each one!) but we want 'em to stay more cleric than mage, right? Oh, yeah, and with the 1st, 3rd, 7th progression...I see what you did there...

The idea with the alienist spells was that because the feeling that I got from the books and such was a witch-ee/crazy wizard-ee vibe, and i wanted to represent the powers that I thought should be represented (mage like spells) while still keeping the priest vibe. I don't know if I explained it well, but the idea is 1/day for each spell level except for your highest one you can cast ONE mage spell (in addition to your other spells) that is given to you by your god. You can't choose your own spells, your god gives you one based on its whims and dogma. Thinking about I think I would remove learning new ones via Read Magic and getting a new one each level, and then maybe what you get at 7th level is the power to "research" more for Even More Insanity(tm). This would effectively give the cultist another "hint of witch" and is (In My Opinion) a good way to work in "Moar Powar" from worshiping these crazy gods and Insanity, which should defiantly be in this class.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thing that I just thought of that I would like to talk about is the level of these gods (Demi, Lesser, Greater, ect.). All of them should be Awesomely Powerful, but should some be more Awesomely Powerful then others? Just a thought to take or leave.

[David]

Howdy Aaron,

Ah, this is a COOL topic! And I really love both where you're going with it AND how you're using reason, logic, textual analysis, and contextual comparisons to guide you. Nice.

I would LOVE to help you draw up a base spell list for this class -- next week/-end. I have two books I need to read this one and a paper to write (in part on Kabbalah, which has a tiny bit the same feel, at least as you first get into it, of plumbing ancient secrets for lost knowledge of hidden traditions....

I think a few mage spells learned like witch spells are learn (x1/lvl) would be okay. I'd just want to limit their use so that a cleric of Hastur (for instance) doesn't take magic missile (as a 2nd level spells) and then use it to gun-down every enemy he meets. I would think that the spells a Cultist would poach should be weird -- illusions (mess with reality), summoning (get stuff, but NOT normal stuff!), divination (learn secrets), maybe necromancy (mess with life forces and emulate rapid healing). I don't really see evocation, abjuration, and am ambivalent about enchantment transmutation.

So, like, I'm thinking about the flavor of a person who learns about and studies these FORBIDDEN gods. They're intellectual academics or iconoclastic seekers. In both cases, they seem to be the kinds of people drawn to mental and possibly creative endeavors rather than martial, material, or large-scale ones. This definitely gives such people an aspect, much like a scholar, sage, mage, loremaster, or bard. I think that mapping works quite well, in fact, as these are very cerebral topics which hack-and-slash clerics and battle-mages wouldn't appreciate. So, keeping this theme, I'd say never any armor, just like a witch, alchemist, metaphysician, or mage -- all of which the Cultist represents.

Heck, I'm thinking about this as I type... A cultist really *IS* a variety of a metaphysician. Instead of being someone who probes the mysteries of the universe like a mage and attempts to solve spiritual puzzles and ailments, the cultist has FOUND a source of strange, mysterious power and now serves it (in a matter of fashion). The two classes are deeply intertwined and share many aspects with one another... Heck, you could say the only real difference is that the metaphysician is "still looking" (for a pure source of power) while the cultist has "found" a (corrupting, alien, and sanity-bending) secret to tap into.

Using this concept, I'd say that 1st lvl cultists should have all the same restrictions as a 1st lvl metaphysician (I think they're called arcanists in the Ravenloft hard-cover). That would be no armor, mage weapons, bonus vs insanity (cuz they've already seen stuff we shouldn't have!), but instead of mage spells, the cultist is tapping into divine power and gets cleric-ish spells -- the (twisted and altered, even-more-ancient-than-the-eldest-druid) cultist list.

I like this...!

At 3rd lvl, the restrictions the cultist first learned (seriously, no one teaches this stuff, or if it is taught, it's a personal journey, like kabbalah), begin to fall away. They can no use any weapon they feel like, since there is no reason not to. Human ethics and limitation are puny for their mighty, inscrutable, alien masters... But armor is still an issue just for training AND because the cultist is still studying magical energies which don't work with armor (just like a witch with spheres still doesn't wear armor or an alchemist or bard is limited when using their magic).

I'd say at 3rd lvl, the cultist can start to learn TRULY forbidden lore -- mage-like spells (probably a special list), at +1 lvl. They get one freebie at this level and every level hereafter (like druids get languages), but there is a chance of insanity with each one. These spells reflect study and experimentation with the universal forces which are somewhat revealed (imperfectly) from these Chthuluian deities.

All of this makes the cultist fit into a special place in the game-reality. They're somewhat like witches, but rather than worship forbidden and unorthodox KNOWN gods that are lesser than the "real" ones, the cultists' gods can stand toe-to-toe with Zeus, Thor, Ra, and Anu. They're somewhat like alchemists, trying to understand the forces of creation, but like witches and druids, its through a divine mechanism. They're somewhat like metaphysician, in that they want to tap into the great mysteries of the cosmos, but the cultist isn't as picky about the source (or consequences) of their power. They're somewhat like druids, in that they represent an ancient faith that breaks the rules of today and transcends puny human civilizations, rules, faith, and pantheons. The cultist then can be an ego maniac or a humble (and slightly twisted) seeker of knowledge (the Arabic root for student comes to mind). Oh, and they're even like clerics of Azathoth, except THAT god made the cross-over to at least slight acceptability while these others COULD create a faith (through a mystic and time) but haven't....yet....(maybe Istus lied and only CLAIMED she created Azathoth...?)

Whatever the case, these alien gods are supremely powerful and at LEAST on par with lesser gods. I'd say there are a few that aren't as tough (Nyrlathotep) and a few that're tougher (the four elementals of Chthulu, Hastur, etc).

Okay, I gotta get back to work. Very cool, again, and I'm quite excited to see how this plays out.

[aaronthecow]

Hmm, thats an interesting class that I've never seen before, though I feel like its lacking in oomph/originality while also being much more powerful then a regular 2nd edition necromancer. The idea is cool, but the execution (at least compared to what I'm used to) is lacking.

As to the whole arcane/witch casting thing, i like your idea that it should be quite limited so its a only once in a while thing and I'll talk to you this weekend about a mechanic that would be appropriate for that.

On the subject of spells, I'd like to talk about the Protection sphere and abjuration spells. Most Cthuhulian gods should get the protection sphere as they can survive the vacuum of space and/or are unaffected by normal weapons and such, they should not however, provide protection from good/evil/chaos/law because as you said they are above human alignment, and it just doesn't really fit with their flavor. If you think about the gods also shouldn't provide an unaligned version of this spell, because it is simply protecting the user from extraplanar dudes, possession, and other such fun things that these gods themselves want to do. The problem with all of this is that if the cultist should remain as a playable class, as opposed to an insane lunatic who ruins games, and also be able to summon Lovecraftian monsters, they should have an protection from evil esque spell. As evidence to this, in the books, this is the Elder Sign. So where should this spell be supplied from? I'd like some help with this.

Also, some musings about the gods themselves: these insanely powerful gods from alien worlds/universes probably shouldn't have avatars, but should just show up if they want something done. The problem with this is most if not all of them are either bound outside of this universe or on/in this world (alla Cthulhu) making it impossible for them to show up in person. If they were ever to be free, I would argue that they would be more powerful then the avatars of normal gods, as this is their real and only form. The actual power level of gods should be more than that of Cthulhuian gods, because their existence and power stretches over the multiverse. This whole existing in the Prime is another reason we can say that Azathoth is different from the rest,
"[O]utside the ordered universe [is] that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes."
"Outside the ordered universe" and "inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space" says that he is in another plane, meaning that he is more like your average god.

Finally, on the whole undead thing my friend Alex who has read/is reading The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath has a few things to say:
"The lovecraftian stories do have undead in them! In the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath, Randall Carter is taken away by night-things into a great pit filled with ghouls and zombies that had been thrown there by the Old Gods. You might want to incorporate some kind of mild opinion, almost pity or spite for undead into the "flavor" of a lovecraftian cultist. They certainly don't have control over undead but they are important figures in the more abstract region of the lovecraftiverse."


Also, cleaned up and changed OP a bit as has been talked about in these posts.

[aaronthecow]

I've been thinking and talking it over, and I think I'm going to make a few changes to this class:

The first thing is that the mage spells should be taken out. While they do mange to make the class feel more mage-y, they take up the slot of cool power, keeping the cultist's real spells from shining. It also feels like a handout from the gods, which conflicts with the feel that they are inhuman entities that don't help the cultist at all. For the same reason I'm also thinking of removing the +2 vs x based on god.

I think that the current class feels too blast-y, and not occult enough. The cultist should have had to look through 100 books to just find a mention of the gods he venerates, and another 100 to piece together how to get to first level. This person should know quite well how to read through tomes of forbidden knowledge. Many of the tomes weren't written in common, much less a living language, so it makes sense that the Cultist can piece together any written language he comes across. It would by no means take a few rounds to do this though. I'd say they have a chance equal to their int+level to piece together the general idea in an hour, and a cumulative 5% for every week or day (I'm undecided) spent studying to have a relatively good understanding of the text. This includes spells or magical writing, however as the Cultist can't cast Read Magic, they must spend many painstaking hours on even one page (can be exactly defined later). As part of this ability, the cultist may use almost all magical tomes.

At third level, the Cultist has a comprehensive enough understanding of magic to cast scrolls of any class. Trouble starts when the spells can't be cast by the Cultist himself. If the spell being cast isn't in the spell list of the Cultist the chance that they succeed is equal to their chance to understand spells minus the level of the spell times two. In addition, if the spell isn't appropriate for cultists in general or the spheres of the specific cultist, then the cultist subtracts another 10%. If the spell is higher level than the Cultist can cast, then the Cultist's base chances are halved before modifiers, in addition to the normal chances to mess up the casting of a higher level scroll in the DMG. The DM is always encouraged to mess with spells cast in this manner that could not be cast by the Cultist otherwise whether or not they succeed. In addition, if they fail to succeed for any reason, it is the DM's responsibility exact an appropriately dreadful consequence, including but not limited to insanity, dismemberment, and possession by alien entities.

Jeff Lebowski, a 3rd level Cultist with 14 Int casts detect magic off a mage scroll. Because he can cast 1st level spells and has detect magic normally, it goes off without a hitch. If the Cultist couldn't cast detect magic he would have a 60% chance -2 for the spell level for a total of 58%. This is because it is a divination spell and appropriate to the class.
Next, The Dude decides that it would be a good idea to cast magic missile off another scroll he found. He has a base 60% chance to cast the spell because of his Int, minus 2% for the spell level, minus 10% because it doesn't fall into any of The Dude's spheres and another -10% because Magic Missile isn't an appropriate spell for Cultists. This adds up to a 38% chance to cast a spell at the darkness. In addition, even when The Dude successfully casts his spell, the DM decides that his missiles bounce off each other in mid air requiring Lebowski to roll to his with each of his two missiles as they fly off course.
The Dude now thinks that he is the greatest and wants to try out a higher level spell. He whips out his scroll of Wizards Wrath and casts it. His base 60% chance is now halved to 30% with another -8% because of the spell level and -20% because of inappropriate spell chance, giving him a whopping 2% chance to cast the spell successfully. In addition The Dude has the normal chances to screw up a spell to deal with. When The Dude fails, the DM rules that the Wizard's Wrath hits Jeff in the head for 4d6+4 and The Dude receives no save as his head explodes from the crit that resulted.

At seventh level the Cultist receives the ability to research spells. The research of a Cultist is similar to that of a mage in that it costs money and requires tomes to be acquired; however, because there are no occult books available for purchase on the open market, much less guides on how to go about the research, there are some major differences. The first is that the cultist must have 3 reasons that they can research a spell on the topic in question, and one of those reasons must be an occult book, usually one found on an adventure (If a cultist is interested in finding one of these tomes, it is appropriate for them to inform the DM they are listening for rumors on the subject.). The reasons can be many things, including having read magical tomes, dissected creatures of the Cuthulian mythos with appropriate abilities, or having a copy of a relevant spell (for which the Cultist should roll to understand).

Randall Carter, a 7th level Cultist wants to research a spell that strengthens the caster. In order to do so, he lists off his three reasons to the DM. The first is that he has a copy of the mage spell Strength, and as a bonus, the clerical spell draw upon holy might. His second explanation is that he has read a manual of fitness, which has informed him of important details about the human body and strength. He does not have an appropriate occult tome, so he informs the DM that he is on the lookout for one or any rumors relating to one. Once he has the tome, Randall may continue his research.


So the goal of these changes are to improve the flavor of the class and to also make tomes, books, and scrolls more important to them. Please Evaluate and Critique Honestly!


TL;DR:
+ Decipher Scripts
+ Cast from non-classed scrolls w/ chance of disaster
+ Clarification on spell research

- Mage spells

I'll post some stuff about spheres and new spells tomorrow/soon

[David]

Howdy Aaron,

I re-read all this. I really do think there some great stuff here. I think it's important, however, to keep in mind "how would someone actually BECOME a member of this class"? I mean, it's not like anyone is going to TRY and teach people to become insane sociopaths, schooled in knowledge not meant for humans. This really does have the taste of someone that's drunk too deeply of esoteric lore. That, I think, is where the tie with the metaphysician comes in. The cultist simply doesn't realize (or doesn't care) that there are costs to access this power. And, accordingly, I think that the cultist should get some extra perks with some fiendish defects as a result.

Who do we all KNOW that might walk at least some of the "paths" that lead to this class and/or have interests that lean this way? I'd say myself, Steven, and even maybe Van or Jeff or Cathy. Okay, but no one TRIES to "drink the Kool-Aid" so that should be structured into the class too -- they begin very similar to related classes and diverge as the character advances in levels and becomes more steeped in this dark lore.

I'd seriously stick with 13 Int and Wis, cuz it should be hard to do this, but not so hard that the class dies out. Smart-but-not-smart-enough really seems appropriate.

+2 save vs insanity is also good -- they've already faced their inner-demons at least once, which is more than MOST of the population

Mage weapons and armor, but druid spell progression and eep chart. Maybe mage combat and saving throw chart too? (that'd be like a witch as well -- no god is protecting you; it's your own mind and wits!)

I really LIKE Read Languages as a thief of +3 levels (so the skill starts at 1st). And maybe even make that the chance to decipher magical writings (including scrolls) too... Keep in mind, thieves and witches also read scrolls which they don't really understand...

Keeping the connection with the metaphysician, the cultist can cast spells from the schools of divination, illusion, summoning, necromancy, and enchantment ONLY. Every spell must be "found" so the starting cultist only has a single spell, but can understand the regular minimum (no spell book). Additional mage spells of ALL levels must also be "found" -- no freebies here! And perhaps cultists learn mage spells at a penalty of -10% per level above first (cumulative even?), since they're not really studying magic so much as mysticism. That'll keep the higher level spells out of reach...and keep the focus on the dark divine.

They learn to access and channel the divine quickly, so they gain limited clerical spheres at +1 level -- maybe divination, numbers, thought, summoning, combat, and reversed sun, with limited healing, death, and travelers.

Now you have a class that seems like a dark mystic or (pre-modern, Christian-perspective) kabbalist. They do know some magic, but are much more focused on the divine...the darker divine.

Whaddya think?

[aaronthecow]

This is in response to your post and to what we talked about together on the phone.

I re-read all this. I really do think there some great stuff here. I think it's important, however, to keep in mind "how would someone actually BECOME a member of this class"? I mean, it's not like anyone is going to TRY and teach people to become insane sociopaths, schooled in knowledge not meant for humans. This really does have the taste of someone that's drunk too deeply of esoteric lore. That, I think, is where the tie with the metaphysician comes in. The cultist simply doesn't realize (or doesn't care) that there are costs to access this power. And, accordingly, I think that the cultist should get some extra perks with some fiendish defects as a result.

Who do we all KNOW that might walk at least some of the "paths" that lead to this class and/or have interests that lean this way? I'd say myself, Steven, and even maybe Van or Jeff or Cathy. Okay, but no one TRIES to "drink the Kool-Aid" so that should be structured into the class too -- they begin very similar to related classes and diverge as the character advances in levels and becomes more steeped in this dark lore.

I'd seriously stick with 13 Int and Wis, cuz it should be hard to do this, but not so hard that the class dies out. Smart-but-not-smart-enough really seems appropriate.

Agree with you on all the stuff here. As far as why people would want to join, I was thinking one of two things. Either someone would come across an ancient tome and use the tome as part of their means to get Penultimate Arcane Power^TM (which seems to be what your talking about), or they would come across the tome and become interested in it and learn about it and search out more similar knowledge.

Mage weapons and armor, but druid spell progression and eep chart. Maybe mage combat and saving throw chart too? (that'd be like a witch as well -- no god is protecting you; it's your own mind and wits!)

Agree with armor and eeps, and do you think the any weapon at/after 3rd should be removed? I was actually thinking about the combat and saves, and I think mage saves and combat are appropriate because the class has transformed to be much more arcane/scholarly, but if we want to keep the class powerful enough that the party doesn't whine when someone brings a first level one in *coughfWitchcoughf* it needs to have something to make up for it.

I really LIKE Read Languages as a thief of +3 levels (so the skill starts at 1st). And maybe even make that the chance to decipher magical writings (including scrolls) too... Keep in mind, thieves and witches also read scrolls which they don't really understand...

Keeping the connection with the metaphysician, the cultist can cast spells from the schools of divination, illusion, summoning, necromancy, and enchantment ONLY. Every spell must be "found" so the starting cultist only has a single spell, but can understand the regular minimum (no spell book). Additional mage spells of ALL levels must also be "found" -- no freebies here! And perhaps cultists learn mage spells at a penalty of -10% per level above first (cumulative even?), since they're not really studying magic so much as mysticism. That'll keep the higher level spells out of reach...and keep the focus on the dark divine.

They learn to access and channel the divine quickly, so they gain limited clerical spheres at +1 level -- maybe divination, numbers, thought, summoning, combat, and reversed sun, with limited healing, death, and travelers.

Now you have a class that seems like a dark mystic or (pre-modern, Christian-perspective) kabbalist. They do know some magic, but are much more focused on the divine...the darker divine.

I'm grouping all of these together because they seem to get at the same idea. The post that I just made was a repost because I lost my previous post, so I was more tired and less willing to spell out my ideas about the class. The first thing was that I wanted to give the class an incentive to pick up magic books, scrolls, and other writings of all kind to make them seem more scholarly and also give them a reason to search for mage spell books (It just sortof seemed like the right thing to do flavor wise, and I think that has been confirmed by you doing the same thing). This is where the read langs. came in. I wanted to let them read the "Ancient and Forbidden" lore that probably wouldn't be written in english.

You also have them with mage spells to make them feel more like the metaphysician. I didn't quite make it clear in my post, but part of my idea of the spell research was that I would allow and encourage the cultist to take mage spells and make an equivalent or maybe even just take the spell for their research.

The problem I see with the set up that you have is that it really leaves the class with the short end of the stick. They start with only a few select mage spells and they don't get more as they level up. In addition to this, they also have their cleric spells at +1 level and we are even talking about giving them mage THACO. The only thing they get out of it is a bit easier eep table and a few more spells. Risking your insanity for the dark secrets of the universe is looking a lot less appealing. I think part of this is that your class represents much more of the antagonist of Lovercraft's stories: the intellectual who knows only a thing or two about the mythos and holds onto his sanity, fighting the "evil" aliens, a scholar who dips his toe into the forgotten knowledge in an attempt to understand a mystery. I think that that is not what this class is/should be. It is an interesting archetype, but it would be better represented by a mage/metaphysician who reads a book or two and gets a few powers. The flavor for the class that I was more going towards would be someone who throws themselves whole hardily into the insanity, one of the people who would be one of the victims in a novel, or part of a secret society/cult that knows and worships the elder evils.

Thats my take on it, and i would appreciate it if you tell me what you think. Also, it anything is unclear or seems strangely worded, let me know and I'll try to clarify, as this was written over two days and finished with a headache.

EDIT: Just realized that my 2nd last paragraph came off a bit dismissive and rude, and that was not my intention. I'm not sure if my current path towords this class is the best, and i think you had some good ideas, but I don't think either of our write ups are quite to the final stage.