Shields

[David]

Hey folks,

This is another one of those topics which has been on my mind for MANY years.

Basically, as anyone who's played Dnd knows, a shield adds one to your AC. That's the same as having a SLIGHT amount of cover or wearing thick clothing.

Now, if you compare that to what you find in most of other games systems, it doesn't seem that Dnd gives a shield the credit it deserves. In ArmsLaw, for instance, a shield gives a +25 (+5 AC), in Tunnels and Trolls it takes a NUMBER of hits (better than most "lesser" armors), in Fantasy Trip a shield doesn't unduly affect combat but is good for multiple hits, my recollection of shields in Paladium is similar.

Finally, in real life, in an average battle, supposedly 1/2 to 2/3 of all hits were taken on the shield. Heck, what the SCA fight some time (yes, they're lame, but do nicely illustrate my point); shields are worth WAY more than a +1 AC.

"But, David, you introduced Shield Use years ago to compensate for this deficiency"

Well, yeah, but I don't think it goes ANYWHERE near far enough. And compared to Combat Dodge, it is roughly the same, yet if that were the case, there wouldn't have been some many skilled warriors running around with a shield instead of twin weapons.

No, we're not modeling reality right here. So, I would like to propose the following change.

a) for a neophyte (unskilled) figure with a shield == no change (not perfect, but simple)

b) for one weapon slot, a figure can become PROFICIENT in Shield Use == AC bonus based on the size of the shield (the bigger the area, the more cover)

c) AFTER Shield Use, then comes Shield Specialization (like weapon specialization) with mirrored rules to match == again, other than B, no change

People with a Shield proficiency would be able to get more "bang for their buck" out of a shield as follows:

Buckler == no change
Small Shield (targ) == +1 (more) AC
Large Shield (viking) == +2 (more) AC

Also, for all these bonuses to AC, a figure gets the SAME bonus to saving throws if the shield could be of some use against the attack. Sorry, but I'd rather block a red dragon's breath with a wooden shield than my little hand. It should give me SOME added protection, especially since with even a little cover I'd get a similar bonus (per Combat and Tactics, 25% cover gives +2, 50% gives +4, 75% gives +7, and 90% gives +10). So, honestly, since a shield usually covers AT LEAST 25% of a fighter's body-area, this all makes total sense...

Oh yeah, and these bonuses ADJUST for size. Thus, for someone size Small (hobbit or gnome), the bonuses go up by one (the shield covers more), while for someone size Large (lizard man, gnoll, young giant), the MAX bonus goes down by one (NEVER below 1pt, however).

Is this system perfect? No, but it sure as hell is better than what is there now, where a shield being actively used gives less protection than marginal cover behind a static solid object...

Thoughts?
David
aka
Daisy Hornblower

[Jenn G]

That makes total sense to me, especially having a proficiency to use it more effectively or size advantages. Would a large shield also impact movement?

[charbidge]

Brace your self, because I'm gonna deluge you with shield stuff... Greeks, Romans, Vikings, and the Visby forensic findings. Greek battles and most Roman fights ended with HUGE losses on the loser's side against negligible losses for the winner, whereas in most recorded Japanese battles (few or no shields on either side) had enourmous butcher's bills on BOTH side.

Anyway, I will hit you with a paper on it once I get the time to solidify my research, but I recall mentioning the Greek Hoplite panoply being essentially AC negative a BUNCH from the front.

[aaronthecow]

dam..... now sanua wish her boon was withshild use and using shildes.

[Jeff]

Whuhahahahahahahahhahahahhahaha!!! Suck AC -4!!!

But anyways, I like it. It tends to be the way a real shield would work (a tower shield still only grants +1 to AC?).

Just one question. If you take shield specialization, then would you get another +(insert number here) for your shield (as per Shield Use)?

[charbidge]

Think about adding an AC bonus of 1 every time the character becomes entitled to a new Weapon proficiency. A fighter would benefit the most and fastest, a cleric would do all right, and a ranger or thief-type could improve his melee (only) AC with his parrying weapon. It should also apply to melee parrying with a two-handed weapon, since over half of the moves with such a weapon (rifle-and-bayonet, in my experience) are parries and counters.

[Admin]

I think it makes a lot of sense to increase AC based on the size of the shield.

I wasn't clear about the Shield specialization....here's what I am reading into this...but I want to clarify.

regular PC/person using a shield gets a +1 to AC regardless of shield size (basically they don't know HOW to use it to block incoming blows...so there is no change to current AC rule.)

PC w/ one weapon in Shield Use gets a +1 to AC w/ buckler (basically no change to current rule), +2 to AC w/ small shield, +3 to AC/ large shield

PC w/ two weapons in Shield use currently (now called Shield Specialization) -- unclear of what happens at this stage...does the character get an additional point of AC regardless of what they are using? in other words...Buckler: +2 small shield: +3 large shield: +4 ? Or am I misunderstanding what you were saying.

[aaronthecow]

I think that every one gets the adgusted shilde stuff because if your behind a tower shild and you use it as effective cover cuse you don't know how to use it, you'll still get a +150 AC bonus and a +151 if you have shild use, and so forth.
Thats how the bunny seases it.
Also, Jeff, you forgo sise bonus so now you have AC -5
(srry can't spell)

[Jeff]

No Aaron. Your wrong as always. Dwarves are Medium Sized.

[David]

Well, most everyone seems to have gotten the idea and mostly agreed. Let me attempt to spell it all out, however, one last time:

NO proficiences in Shield: +1 AC regardless of what size shield (bucker, small, large) is being used. Tower shields are a different animal and I don't want to deal with them yet.

ONE proficience in Shield (aka Shield Use): no bonus for buckler, +1 AC MORE for small, +2 AC MORE for large shield. Again, no comment on tower shields.

TWO proficiencies in Shield (aka Shield Use and THEN Shield Specialization): +1 MORE to AC and +2 MORE to shield-valid saves (per the regular specialization rules)

THREE proficiencies in Shield (aka Shield Use and THEN DOUBLE Shield Specialization aka being Captain America): +2 MORE to AC and +1 MORE to shield-valid saves (again, per the regular specialization rules).

The idea being that someone with three weapons in using a shield well would ROCK (and also need to be 10th lvl or trained by someone who is!).

[aaronthecow]

if I was a dude with a buckler, +1 because of shild, with shild use, and OVERALL bounus of +2, and so forth...

[David]

Hiya Aaron. I think that sounds right. If someone is using a +1 buckler, then even with Shield Use, they would only get a +2 to their AC. The reason is that a buckler is really small and not likely to be of much help (in a realistic world) compared with a LARGE shield which covers over half the body. The only exception would be if the shield users was size SMALL (a hobbit or gnome) because for them a buckler is the same as a small shield to a human (it covers more of their body). Does that make sense? Oh, yeah, and before ANYONE asks, there is a down side to all this and that's even if you use a buckler you MUST take Shield Use before you take any Shield Specializations (just like you have to take short sword before short sword specialization!).

[aaronthecow]

been thinking about this more...

What are bonuses for saving throws for shield use and combat doge?

If they are equal, after the first proficency in SU there would be no reason to ever specialise in it. After the inital proficency, you go up at a rate of 1to1, just like with CD, but you also have a OFI (a -1/2 penalty in champions). Maybe to compensate for this a 1.5 bouns to AC or a larger bonus to saving throws?

[David]

Howdy Aaron,

Good points and nice thinking. Extra props for the Champions reference too!

Shield Use has certain advantages over Combat Dodge. With Shield Use you can protect another person and similarly, if your leg is messed up, you can still use Shield Use without penalty. Combat Dodge is also restricted to what a person is wearing -- heavy armors I think limit you to only +1.

For three proficiencies (two of which are specializations, admittedly), a fighter with a large shield can rack up SIX points of AC from a simple, non-magical, large shield (one for being a shield, two more for proficiency in basic shield use, one more for specialization, and two more for double-specialization). Oh, and that includes a +5 vs applicable attacks. Now, if you have a magical shield, you could go up to AC -1 in the buff with a shield.

[Andy]

Now I really want to play Tyris=Flare. Not sure how I missed this thread before...

Just think about it - give a bunch of kids sticks, then give one of them a trashcan lid as well. Trashcan kid is going to be whacked way less often than the others.

It seems to me that using a buckler at all effectively should require at least a skill. However, I think that a small or large shield should provide their additional protection without having to invest further...a third level non-shield specialist fighter should be better at shielding than an assassin that just happened to pick up a large shield to fend off the city guard. Obviously that'd be true since he has more weapons to spend, but it does seem part of the basic fighter package.

I do very much like being able to spend more to get better at shielding though!

Are you enforcing any restrictions as to who might spend these skills? Can only fighters / fighter classes take this skill, or specialize?