Martial Arts and Attacks of Opportunity

[David]

Howdy folks,

Something came up recently which makes me think this topic is unclear. So, here's my attempt to cast dispel confusion on the topic of Martial Attacks and Attacks of Opportunity.

It's really pretty simple -- if whatever weapon an attacker is using has less than 1/2 the reach of the defender's weapon, then the defender gets a free attack (attack of opportunity) if the attacker attempts to strike. Basically, in such cases, the attacker is opening his defenses in order to strike.

Now, in the case of martial arts, they have ZERO reach since they're part of the attackers body. Thus, unless otherwise specified below, Martial Arts attacks ALWAYS trigger an attack of opportunity.

The only exceptions/caveats are:

* If the attacker has TWO FULL weapons (the complete style) then the attacker is assumed to have a weapon length equal to half his heigh (2' to 3'). This is usually enough to foil most weapons.

* If the attacker has ONE and ONE HALF WEAPONS (more than the basics, but still not the full style), then the attacker has a reach of 1'. This reflects those fighters who can bypass a knife or dagger, but must still respect a sword.

* The attacker has a specific non-weapon in Martial Reach, which allows the same reach as if the attacker had two weapons. Can be later folded into the full two weapon proficiency or maintained for extra reach.

* If the attacker is a MONK, then the attacker is assumed to have a weapon length equal to half his height (above) OR half his level, WHICHEVER IS HIGHER. So, a high level monk could easily bypass a spear or other such weapon with reach.

* Certain attack maneuvers are effectively "at range" such as flying kick, distance death, etc, and therefore do not trigger an attack of opportunity either.

What does this mean? Well, generally, unless a martial artist has two full weapons or is a monk, they're always going to trigger an attack of opportunity when initiating combat simply because they lack reach. This is the classic movie scene where folks are fist fighting and suddenly someone pulls a knife and only the TOUGH martial artist continues to do battle without hesitation.

Tangibly, it means Tyris=Flare will only use her body weapontry when she's already stepped passed someone's defenses via another melee attack. Kara will be in the same boat, using her kick AFTER her claw sequence. Harbinder has taken a skill in allowing her to strike with her boxing with reach. Wing and most other kensais are fine, as are most monks.

Basically, martial arts have some draw backs to offset two strikes per round against different targets at no penalty plus base AC plus a general inability to have the PC disarmed. And, realism is preserved.

Oh, and animals get a "reach" equal to their hit dice to reflect their speed and power.

David
aka
Shang-Lung Drake, the Black Dragon
Goldilox Took (ouch)
Gamoth (ouch)
Kara (ouch -- although her gloves still work)
Wing Cho-Tan, Oerth Fighter and Mortal Kombat Champion
Nijo (ouch)
Harbinder Prandoori
Kalavor Talgris (uses animal rules)
Phillipe Redlocke (ditto)
Tarquin Drake, Ensign of the Starship Warden
Flora Drake (ouch)
Malok Drake
Dajamira (ouch)
Dionan

[Admin]

Well aren't I glad that I put two full weapons into Amanda's martial arts style

Just call me Wing HO Tan hehe

[David]

How about I just call you -er- Amanda a ho? ;D

[Andy]

This pretty much makes sense to me - I have one situation that I'm not sure is covered here.

Say, for a moment Tyris=Flare the Ever-Living is beset in the street by a spear-wielding thug. What you're saying then, is, even with inititive, Tyr would be subject to the thug spearing her before she could lean over and slap him silly.

I'm totally okay with this general idea.

Here's the thing, though. Tyr has hand to hand options open to her that should change or modify that opportunity strike.

For example, if she's there, ready to fist him, with initiaive and I say, "Attack him!" then agreed, he gets to spear her first; the DM should assume she's trying to punch him in the nose. But suppose I have her (as a canny fighter)...

1. Attack his spear, attempting to break it or get him to drop it?

2. Choose to parry, something she could do with a shield or bare hand or a garbage can lid grabbed up from nearby. He'd certainly get the first real attack, but she'd have the opportunity to parry.

I think part of that has to do with the capability of the player to play the character given the sitation. So, yes, I agree with the rule (if I understand the what an attack of opportunity is) given the appropriate circumstances.

Andy

[David]

Howdy Elf,

Yes, the guy with the spear would get to nail you first in 98% of the scenarios, BEFORE initiative is rolled.

Now, you could TRY to attack his spear, but that might be tough and would necesitate giving up an attack (sure, he doesn't have a spear, but he could still whack you with his big stick now!). Also, if you get MULTIPLE attacks in a round, you could use one to punch -- think battle axe then slug, à la Xena.

Grabbing a spear or any other weapon automatically invites an attack of opportunity unless you have the skill weapon catch. Parrying without a shield, garbage can lid, garden trowl, thick cloak, unabridged dictionary (with percentile strength) isn't possible. Also, unless you get two DISTINCT attacks, you can't parry and attack in the same round.

Finally, please don't fist my monsters. They might not be into that. Also, I might be forced to apply friction or muscular damage to your hand and wrist, especially if you attempt to fist a hill giant or dragon. Finally, I would say a save vs petrification might be in order if you didn't prepare yourself with oil of slipperiness before hand, otherwise you might find your limb stuck (someone one told me a story about a wrist sprain due to muscular contractions...)

Feeling like a smart, unfisted ass,
David

[Admin]

David said:

Howdy Elf,
Finally, please don't fist my monsters. They might not be into that. Also, I might be forced to apply friction or muscular damage to your hand and wrist, especially if you attempt to fist a hill giant or dragon. Finally, I would say a save vs petrification might be in order if you didn't prepare yourself with oil of slipperiness before hand, otherwise you might find your limb stuck (someone one told me a story about a wrist sprain due to muscular contractions...)

Sometimes you scare me w/ the way your mind works

[Andy]

I'm not sure like the 'before initive' idea. Certainly, there should be plenty of situations where someone is under duress and can't do anything effectively (no weapon long enough to get the job done , fell down, are 'on the ropes' ) but it doesn't make sense just to give automatic attack.

Suppose, in the previous example Tyr decided to psi-blast him instead? Or DDoor away? Or shoot magic lightning snow-monkeys out her butt?

I like how Champions requires a successful manouver out of the one that wants to get the drop on someone. Once that's succeeded, sure, that's the equivalent of holding the spear to the poor fool's throat in a 'Move and you Die' type of manouver.

But there are a whole variety of different things that a unarmed (or short-armed) person might be able to do when beset by a spear-wielding enemy. I fully agree that's situational to the attacked (yeah, some people might not be able to do anything).

For Tyr's (potential) case, I figure this would be reasonable:

Round 1. Thug rolls a 5, Tyr a 3 for initive. She calls parry with body weaponry. Thug stabs, she parries.
Round 2. Tyr clobbers thug. (don't you gain initiive if you successfully parry?)

Ideally, you could do a 'normal combat' and 'extended range combat' like Lost Worlds, but I'm sure nobody wants those headaches. There are cases though, as in 'The Lion of Ireland' where people have learned to get inside the radius of the longer weapon, then attack. Certainly, the longer weapon gets first attack, but it's not a freeby, it's parry *then* move in on the next round.

Andy

[David]

Here's an easy way of thinking about it...

All other factors being equal, if two fighters are BEGINNING combat 10' or more away from one another, then baring any movement abilities the order goes...

1) ranged weapons (more likely to be an issue at multiple 10s of feet)
2) long reach weapons
3) short reach weapons
4) no reach weapons

If Tyr (or Moorak, Jessica, Kate, Zandra, et al) is bare-handed and facing an idiot with a knife, then the guy with the blade gets first stab. Sure, you can call parry, but to do so a) you must DECLARE the action before rolling initiative, b) you must WIN initiative, and c) you must have something to parry with. Storm once used her cloak when knife fighting with Callisto and I thought that was a great example of using what's at hand. But the point is, it is quite likely that the dork with the dagger could get in two successful hits BEFORE the high level fighter (assuming a bad initiative roll and good to hit rolls). That is how you force a person back -- as you have done to my monsters for decades...

Realistically, unless someone is well-trained with martial arts and/or good with feints, an unarmed body is going to get his ass stabbed before getting a chance to land a punch. That's just reality. Much like why folks give up when they have a crossbow pointed at them. The same should apply with a gladius vs a spear or a dagger vs a fist, as the gladiators of ancient Rome proved hundreds of times a year...

Finally, Tyris=Flare could parry for her FIRST round as she steps into attack range. Then, on her SECOND round, she could slug. Successfully parry does NOT give you initiative the next round -- it spares you from damage and costs both fighters an attack.

David

[Stephanous]

Fisting monsters? What's next? Giving Kiro a hot Carl?

Paul

[Andy]

>>> a) you must DECLARE the action before rolling initiative,

Okay, that's what I wanted to hear. I'm happy now. IAC, this gives the DM full right to be a dick to those that aren't paying attention. That works for me.

And as appropriate as well. Daisy with a trowel? No problem. A low level mage outta spells? Well, some screaming would sound nice before they got impaled.

[Admin]

Stephanous said:

Fisting monsters? What's next? Giving Kiro a hot Carl?

Paul

ummm okay...now that I know what that is...eeewww....but if you haven't seen Team America World Police...well, then you have missed out on "Hot karl" puppet action...hehehe