Can Bob go shop for a hand now?

[Ghost of Bob]

Bob really needs to get his hand back. This not killing things on the first hits sucks. Is there a higher level medic here at the base camp who can CCW or Heal for $$? If so, what's the going rate if you brought back the pieces same day?
Bob is loaded with gems and jewelry he has yet to unload, so he can pay.
C'mon folks, give the guy a hand....

[David]

Unfortunately, if there were a cleric of that power, then he could also probably toss out enough flame strikes and ariel servants to deal with the pesky orcs. Only a high priest can cast CCW and it takes a greater priest with major access to healing to do a heal. On the bright side, however, if this mission is successful, then the commander could "recommend" you to a cleric who might charge you less than an arm-and-a-leg...(I couldn't resist).

[David]

This brings up a point I wanted to share with folks -- you heroes are SPECIAL

No seriously, not short-bus, helmet-wearing special, but actually nearly unique and unusual.

I figure only about 1 person in 100 is 3rd lvl with only about 1 person in 800 being 6th (where most of the party is). Furyondy (the country you're fighting in) has a total population of about 350,000, so there are only about 430 people in the nation on par with you guys. That makes you something of the elite.

[Ghost of Bob]

Who planned this war? The Bush Administration? Does the VA know about the conditions in this theater of operations? Shocking!

You all are lucky Bob's not Muslim or he'd need one of you to wipe his ass for him. (Or he'd just use one of you.)
Can Mal Psycho-regenerate the hand after leveling?

[Ghost of Bob]

I hate to be that guy, but you know until Bob gets fixed he'll always be right.... (groan)

[Ghost of Bob]

Bob is considering gluing his left middle finger to the stump until it gets fixed so you can all know how he feels.

[David]

Unfortunately, bio-regeneration is a greater discipline that Mikhail doesn't have. He is only aware of one living psi with the power and she's a retired bitch (played by my ex, Paul).

[minosti]

Too bad you were so opposed to making friends with Navroc. I think you should get it reanimated and keep it as a pet.

[Ghost of Bob]

Who is Navroc? When did Anwar refuse to be friends with anyone? I mean he was okay with Sulvana's consistent bad attitude and rudeness...

[David]

Anwar, as a devout Enlightened One (read: fantasy Muslim) should never be cool with a figure like Navroc who is a witch (divine rule-breaker) and who uses necromancy freely (divine bad-guy). Bob, on the other hand (budum, bah!) has the ethical compass of a Fucking-Dumbass-Conversative-Republican-Asshole, so he should be fine with major moral incongruencies...

[Ghost of Bob]

I hate to point out the obvious, but this entire extended party is a major moral incongruity! We have total randomness - LG sorts consorting with Ns and CG/CN sorts willingly adventuring with stuck-up Ls. Either the characters throw snips and walk out in the midst of an adventure, or we must be OVERLY accommodating to whatever extreme opinions are forced upon us by other party members. The collection of players really have no cohesive approach to playing the game. Some really do, but others seem to live for interjecting awkward character concepts into a party which would otherwise have killed them as a hostile or arrested them for the local crown. I'm all for the melting pot approach to games, but really.
In most adventures, there is a philosophic requirement to join a party - only characters one step removed from the target alignment (for a LG game, only LG,LN, NG or CGs allowed and the CGs only if they have a critical skill). We are a walking orphanage of characters, not a party as such.
In classic gaming you would form a party around the required job skills - F, C, M, T, and R or D. If your character did not possess a needed job skill, the party would not allow them to join. We are a menagerie of random classes, some of which are opposed.
To expect folks to adequately role play their character's alignment and still function as a group is unrealistic. You purport that Bob has a wildly spinning moral compass, but I contend he has been utterly consistent to the reactions expected of a military person forced to hang out with persons who could well learn some life lessons from a few months in the brig. Also a pig farm-raised person like Bob would have a lower opinion of animals as pets and with bothering to heal them all the time. Animals come and go, but are best as dinner. This getting friendly with your food is an alien concept.
At least he hasn't killed any players (yet).

[David]

Hmmm, well, to be honest, I disagree on a couple of the fundamental points there, Adam...

First, using just about an comic book or SciFi show as an example, I can show you cohesive groups that function quite effectively in the "adventuring party" sense.

ALIGNMENT
I will start with the X-Men, contrasting Wolverine and Gambit (CN) with Storm and Beast (LG) and with Cyclops and Nightcrawlker (NG), Iceman (CG), and Magneto and Bishop (LN). Now, if that's not sufficient, perhaps we could look at Voyager's crew with Captain Janeway (LG), Tuvok and Seven of Nine (LN), and Neelix (NG) but also Lt Paris and Beylana (CG). The current party acting as elite skirmishers and mercenaries in Furyondy for the Crown are actually MORE cohesive -- the party that was the TEE party are almost all NG, CG, or N. That's far more tight than most movies which include "thrown together groups" such as the crew of the Nostromo (Aliens), the team in Predator, or even Battlestar or SGU's "survivors." Hell, I'd say that the characters probably are at least as consistent as the players' REAL alignments...

So, clearly, LGs and CNs hang out, grab beers, save the world and chart the Delta Quadrant with interpersonal conflict but not without too much unrealism...

CULTURE
Regardless of that point, however, is one of cultural congruity. Using Anwar as an example, regardless of another Zakharan's alignment, he is almost certainly also enlightened and thus shares a common moral compass and set of expectations even if his way of interaction is different. While this might sound trivial or even conflictory, I've about a couple hundred POUNDS of books on this topic and getting my masters in the field of studying and analyzing such conflict -- something which I've lived across four times in the long term and twice in the short term, so I can certainly vouch for these contrasts even in our post-modern, largely-pluralistic contexts on two OTHER continents. Imagine how much WORSE it should be when Gods are REAL (and WILL blast you for blasphemy) and have set down CLEAR and MONOLITHIC expectations (as among the Enlightened)...not a straight-jacket, but common-ground should NEVER be undervalued.

Now, while it might APPEAR that most of the party is a cultural mishmash, that's not really true. Dion and Jay are Greek and Mikhail was also raised in the tradition. River and Cliffy are Elven, which, while different, is ethically quite compatible. Helga is Dwarven, which the elves have countless centuries of interactions and Mikhail grew up within two miles a major Gnomish/Dwarvish settlement. Minosti and Svala are Celtic, which is similarly quite compatible with both Dwarves and Elves if a bit conflicted with Greeks. But, again, Mikhail was a Celtic druid until he became Moonlight's student, so we have another commonality and Moonlight's connection is a gimme. That leaves Bob, who is either Oerdian (mainstream) or Seuloise (doesn't really fit), so as part of the largest minority, which is also largely compatible with Celts, Greeks, Elves, and Dwarves, there shouldn't be any more tension than a post-modern Muslim, Christian, Jew, and Hindu. Sure, there's potential conflict between the extremes -- Dion vs Bob vs Svala, but that's NOT huge.

Unfortunately, in Anwar's case, he (like the rest of the group) is NOT post-modern and from a culture which is WAY "cooler" and more cohesive than anything he's seen here. It would be logical for him to appear difficult to the others, but also to live with more "firm" social rules -- evil != sociopathic, so even an LE Zakharan would respect women and the salt bond, worry about modesty and honor, and almost certainly defend a fellow Zakharan over most anyone else.

Now, we can debate the influence of culture on attitudes and behavior, but I'm NOT willing to go there. It is an accepted fact. Period. Again, I've a library heavier than both of us combined, spanning three generations of research and testing, peer reviewed, and pretty pointed on this point -- to say nothing of what I do for a living... Culture is the single greatest indicator of potential action of an unknown individual...

OTHER GAMES
Now, I've only been playing for 31 years. And I've played in a zillion and a half games on two continents as well as a read about even more. I've never heard of "everyone must be within one alignment place" except when there's a paladin involved. And even then I can cite articles from the Lake Geneva crowd which certainly "relaxed" this restriction far more than I've ever done...and they INVENTED the damn class!

In contrast, and quite illustrative, are the sample NPC parties included in the Slavers modules or the C-series. Again, far less cohesion of culture, alignment, or class -- I'm thinking the Hidden Shrine of Tomachan (C1) and the party of Nine as well as the Slave Lords in the whole A-series as being particularly good examples. Which brings me to class...

CLASS
Players should NOT be allowed to kick off someone cuz the fit isn't perfect. Again, I can think of loads of unbalanced examples, even if I do ASK players to TRY to get the four bases covered.

This party of twelve in Furyondy (when everyone shows) really is fairly appropriate -- two clerics, two druids, two mages, two rogues, six fighters, and one jack-of-all-trades (yes, three are multi-classed). But as a group, this is again at least as balanced as any sample party in any book I've read -- about another 100lbs worth of modules and game books -- even if a bit HEAVY on the healers. And, since the late 80s, not everyone can turn...in fact, clerics with power over undead are MAYBE 50%...

INDIVIDUAL OUTLOOK
It's totally appropriate for Anwar (as well as Bob and even Dion, Jay, or Helga) to get bunged when Mikhail or Moonlight "wastes" healing on animate lunch-meat. But, that's not an attitude the elves are likely to share. Minosti and Svala should sit somewhere in between. And role-playing such conflict is normative; how much did Bones and Spock argue, even when they knew how the other would likely react? Storm's showdown with Wolverine while battling Mystique's Brotherhood of Evil mutants also comes to mind...

But as a druid, Moonlight and Mikhail WILL be punished for letting their animals die needlessly, even if there WEREN'T an emotional connection. With this addition, well, even regular post-moderns do stupid things... But, any PC with a modest wisdom and life experience with "priests of nature" (druids) should learn to expect it, like a vegetarian's reaction to eating meat or a pacifist's reaction to violence, etc....

INTERPERSONAL CONFLICT
Mild in-party conflicts are part of the game. Heck, they're actively encouraged in Kara-Turan settings as well as in some Zakharan aspects! But that's NOT an excuse for bad or sloppy or post-modern role-play. Most of us reading this may NOT have been raised Catholic or Muslim or some other orthodox faith, but I'm sure you know someone who has been -- imagine what beliefs and attitudes such people hold without reason or logic, and then imagine what YOU would hold in a similar iron-clad grip if GOD HIMSELF appeared to you and said "Yo, do this!"...

[Ghost of Bob]

Well, aside from arguing that fetish extremist latex crowds tend to flock together as a result of a very narrow shared cultural value (your superhero example), I agree with your arguments for the most part.

I was not saying to kick characters out, but in the 32 years of playing with several different gaming crowds over dozens of systems, it has been my experience that new characters attempting to join existing games need to pimp themselves to the group a bit to at least show some value-added to join the group. this is mostly done by the DM/GM, who front screens proposed characters for some sort of cohesion or commonality. I mean, we're not doing an 'anything goes' Bobobo-bo-bobo-bo episode.

It was an expectation (culturally) with my gaming friends that when designing a new character some thought was put into how the new character would fit in with the existing group. In the largest game we played (~28 players), any 'munchkin'-type character who appeared solely to annoy others was routinely allowed to Darwin or even sometimes helped along in doing so, and not allowed to become an established party member.

I think asking players to provide a good reason why their character would be accepted by the existing group is a great requirement.

One of my main points though was that I (Adam) have never heard of Navroc at all and was a bit peeved to be told how Anwar should or shouldn't react to that person. (See three replies up.) I would hope that I have the ability to understand the character concepts for the characters I play.

Bob is simply Oerdian farm stock peasant-turned-soldier from rural southern Greyhawk. Anwar comes from a culture which does not value animals. I have only ever complained about the "wasted cures" because the characters would. (I personally think taking a non-weapon-grade animal non-familiar along is like bringing a wheelbarrow along on a race. Not helpful and generally in the way.)

As far as the alignment/culture/anthropology issue, one rarely invites a Jehovah's Witness to a birthday party or a priest along on a bachelor party. I wouldn't allow Dapper Guido the hit man to count cash at a bank. Likewise having a terrorist bomber along on a vacation is not a great idea. Extremist fundamentalists were simply not encouraged in most games I have played unless the whole gang was likewise frothy and doing a crusade or Holy Quest type scenario. No one like being proselytized 24/7 or being constantly told you're not 'worthy'. Just sayin'.

I simply don't see why some of these folks (outside of they're all in the same game) would choose to sleep in the same camp. This is one of those 'you can't pick your co-workers' things, huh?

[David]

The most ironic part is that while it might not be apparent, the majority of this party actually DOES have a cohesive backstory and relationships. Most of this party (Dion, Daj, Helga, Mikhail, Cliffy, Moonlight, and River) adventured together as part of the Temple of Elemental Evil game, with pretty good connections to one another. Mikhail actually knows Bob, which was his entre into the party, leaving only Minosti, Salva, and Anwar as the "strangers" to the group (since Mikhail did vouch for Bob as we sorta role-played the first game). The other three's entry was via their mutual contacts in the Highlands (you missed those games) and Arabia/Zakhara -- that's also where Navroc comes in. But the point is, the other characters really ARE a cohesive group...other than yours, Angela's, and Jeremy's. And since this is a mercantile mission sponsored by the Crown, makes sense, much like the movies I mentioned.

As for relationships, well, try this... Dion's high-priest is Mikhail's step-father. The only reason the druid hasn't hooked up with Dajamira is because I don't like my PCs to hookup, but otherwise they're VERY compatible, especially given who her father is. Daj is VERY close with Helga (they're 1/2 of the original Girl Power team) and also good friends with Cliffy. Cliffy and River are both elves and River is also one of the New Heroes. Moonlight is Mikhail's old mentor and until he was captured also adventured with River. So really, they do have at least as much in common as Han, Leia, and Luke or Superboy, Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad, Miss Martian, and Artemis (ok, that last one is weak, but she was invented for the new series). Generally, explaining why a PC should join a party IS a good idea....

With regard to Arabic/Zakharan characters, I think it's really important for their culture to figure clearly. And as they're based on real-world Arabs, the parallels should be there, which include certain expectations and interactions. In this case, an evil, non-Enlightened, non-orthodox priest-type who animates the dead has all strikes against him. It's the cultural equivalent of a slaving, child-molesting, racist, misogynist being accepted in a modern American context, even if the players aren't aware of it. I could draw similar parallels with Kara-Tur's (Asian) culture....and your experiences in Japan should nicely illustrate expected norms which don't match what a non-Japanese would do.

So, that leads to the "tending the animals" issue. And I totally agree. Anwar REALLY shouldn't get it as kahins (the Zakharan druidic equivalent) are relatively rare, especially amid al Hadhar, the City Dwellers. Animals are walking larders to be used as humans see fit. Along those same lines, Greeks should TOTALLY overvalue a human over an animal as well, but at least THESE Greeks have been dealing with THESE druids for some time AND druids of Artemis, Demeter, and Gaia are also pretty normative. Now, in Bob's case, sure and it makes sense (much like it makes sense that Marc kills lizard men while Daj protects them) for him to not want cure light wounds to be "wasted." It would be logical that he grew up in a fairly backward place so that he's never met or heard of a druid -- given that he worships Kord this is reasonable, but then he really shouldn't have a very broad background in myth, stories, legends, or anything similar.

[Ghost of Bob]

Which is why Bob blows out witches candles and things the others view as suicidal. I play him as a farmer/soldier without an abundance of non-rural, non-martial knowledge. He is schooled in human military history and warfare, which is why the inclusion on demons, shadows, and undead on the battlefield has freaked Bob out a bit.