The Champion

[Andy]

As I recall, the idea is a paladin-like fighter class for those that are not lawful good, holy, and anal. Or at least those that have a religious hankering to an alternative point of view...

Details? Didn't see anything on the site.

[David]

I just looked for it, but I think it was on Paul's PC. 8-(

The idea is it is like a paladin, with comparable powers and defects, but serving different purposes. To be honest, they should be MORE restricted than the archtypical paladin, albeit in very different ways.

See the following examples:

[David]

Champion of Ehlonna

Perks and disadds:
* Plus one CATEGORY reaction bonus plus Charisma bonus to animals within 10'/level
(replaces Protection from Evil, but is weaker)
* Learn animal languages as a Druid (3rd, 5th, 7th, etc)
(also to compensate for PrEvil)
* Can pass without trace as a druid at 3rd (same lvl as a druid)
(also to compensate for PrEvil)
* +2 all saves
* immune to disease
* cure disease in others 1/week
* lay on hands 2hp/lvl
- - -
* may control LVL in HD of animals as per Ring of Mammal Control, but with save vs wands @ 3rd
(replaces turn/command undead)
* quest for war-horse (or war-stag or unicorn or whatever) @ 4th
* clerical/druidic spells (from appropriate spell list) @ 9th
* may use a holy sword (only paladins are likely to find these)
- - -
* must be NG or N
* limited magical items AND no more treasure than can carry (like a ranger)
(added penalty to be more like a ranger)
* 10% tithe and donation of excess treasure
* must never harm a "natural" animal or lose paladinhood
* must protect chosen animal or lose paladinhood
(these two reflect the can't do chaos or evil restrictions)
* may only freely associate with natural beings (druids, rangers, beastmasters, sylvan elves, centaurs, dryads, and other woodsy folk)
(replaces the free association with LG clerics and fightes)
* may NOT associate with unnatural beings (undead, evil necromancers, devils, demons, slaadi, modron, etc)
(replaces the can't adventure with evil and must avoid neutrals)
* may be turned by any cleric of "unnaturalness"(such as death, undead, devils, demons, evil, etc)

[David]

Champion of Wee Jas

Perks and disadds:
* Detect Chaos in 60'
* Protection from Chaos in 10'
* +2 all saves
* immune to disease
* cure/cause disease in others 1/week
* lay on hands/harm 2hp/lvl
- - -
* may control undead
* quest for SPOOKY war-horse @ 4th
* clerical spells (from appropriate spell list) @ 9th
* may use an APPROPRIATE holy sword (only paladins are likely to find these)
- - -
* must be LN or LE
* limited magical items AND treasure (like a paladin)
* 10% tithe and donation of excess treasure
* must be lawful
* must destroy all demons and chaotic undead encountered (else 1/2 eeps)
(these two reflect the can't do chaos or evil restrictions)
* may only freely associate with lawful beings
(replaces the free association with LG clerics and fightes)
* may NOT associate with chaotic beings
(replaces the can't adventure with evil and must avoid neutrals)
* may be turned by any good cleric
* may not even help to get someone raised unless dead person is lawful and/or 9th lvl

[Andy]

Interesting - I like the general idea - I'm assuming the Champion in all cases counts as a fighter sub-class for fighting skills.

Its gets interesting if you think of a Champion of a much more neutral-related god, say Istus, Lendor, or Hermes...or even Erevan Ileserie. While certainly untraditional, you figure that every legitimate order has got to have muscle hanging around to help keep the place of worship in order.

In fact, just sort of blue-skying it a bit here, I kind of like the idea that perhaps a Champion has to be partially trained by a high priest, thus making them rare, and typically closely allied with a particular temple...a distant cousin to a OA Soehi.

You may see where I'm going with this...I'll try a few myself later today if I get time.

[David]

Oh, ALL paladins and champions MUST be VERY closely tied to a specific religion and god. The paladin actually gains his power from his faith, devotion, and (quite frankly) zealous, extreme, absolute nature. So neutral-based champions will generally get the shorter end of the stick, but they're certainly fair game (it's hard to be a suicide bomber or political martyr if you only "sorta" buy into your cause!).

Now, that said, I do NOT think all faiths could really muster "what it takes" to be a champion. Erevan Ilserie comes to mind. What DOES he represent in a dogmatic, absolute, and extreme way? And, if someone behaves in such a manner, would Erevan himself be okay with it?

[Andy]

>>>(it's hard to be a suicide bomber or political martyr if you only "sorta" buy into your cause!).

A Champion of Lendor, Istus, or even Erevan Ileserie would certainly have to be totally bought into the dogma of their god...and in some ways even more of a pain in the ass about their dogma than a cleric of the same god, agreed.

Erevan Ileserie's dogma represents (as you've written )change and excitement, living on the edge, unbinding from convention, re-invention, laughter and release. He fights against self-rightiousness, sanctimony, and pretension.

Likewise, you could take someone like Lendor, who's dogma is nearly the opposite.

Someone who is perfectly neutral seems most difficult, imagine Bob, Champion of Istus...Guardian of Fate. 'Taste my mighty blade of neither good or evil!!!' he cries as he wades into battle. But saying that Istus shouldn't have champions - heck, on Oerth she's got about as much fershinizzle as any entity...she should have that power. Even if Bob mostly spends time guarding Istus' assets or is sent out to restore balances one place or another (after all, he has to avoid extremists!) it would make sense for any god to have champions.

What would require some significant effort from the player would be playing said character appropriately without becoming the annoy-A-tron 9000 of the party.

[Andy]

Here's a go...mostly from memory since there isn't a writeup of Istus on your web site.


Champion of Istus

Perks and disadds:
* Plus one CATEGORY reaction bonus plus Charisma bonus to Neutrally aligned
(replaces Protection from Evil, but is weaker)
* Can pass amoung any creatures with a chance of them accepting them as not a threat
(also to compensate for PrEvil)
* +2 all saves
* immune to disease
* cure disease in others 1/week
* lay on hands 2hp/lvl
- - -
* may command fate - +1 -1 to die rolls where fate is in the balance
(replaces turn/command undead)
* quest for war-horse -
* clerical spells (from appropriate spell list) @ 9th
* may use a holy sword (the fateblade?!) (only paladins are likely to find these)
- - -
* must be N only
* limited magical items AND no more treasure than can carry (like a ranger)
(added penalty to be more like a ranger)
* 10% tithe and donation of excess treasure
* must never take sides long term
* must protect balance or lose championhood
(these two reflect the can't do chaos or evil restrictions)
* may only freely associate with neutral beings
(replaces the free association with LG clerics and fighters)
* may NOT associate with extremist beings (LG LE CE CG)
(replaces the can't adventure with evil and must avoid neutrals)
* (other limitation to account for being turned?)

[David]

I like it, but would probably massage it more.

This is the "basic" paladin template:

Detect Evil 60'
+2 Saves
Immune to Disease
Lay on Hands
Cure Disease
Protection from Evil 10'
Use a Holy Sword (rarely applicable to non-paladins!)
Turn Undead at 3rd
Call Warhorse at 4th
Cast Spells at 9th
-AND-
Restricted to ten magical items -- one armor, one shield, four weapons, four other items (I let potions slide)
Limited Wealth -- give excess to Church or charity
Tithe 10% of ALL gains
Only LG henchbeings
Only form permanent alliances with LG beings (although NG, CG, and even LN okay DEPENDING on the situation)
Never associate with Evil beings
A Chaotic Act requires an atonement and quest
An Evil Act ends their paladin-hood

I would think that Istus' champion would have Protection from Extremists (LG, CG, LE, CE) instead of Protection from Evil. Similarly, they could Detect Extremists instead of Detect Evil. They should be able to Lay/Harm on Hands and Cure/Cause Disease (both minor perks vis-a-vis a regular paladin). I would probably cut the Turn Undead power entirely to compensate.

[aaronthecow]

what do you think of my...

Champion of Ares

Detect Law 60'
+1 AC and Saves
Lay on Hands on Self ONLY or can add lay on hands to damage of next attack roll (Ignoring damage cap?)
@ 3rd Cast Confusion 1/week (Replaces immunity and Cure Disease)
Protection from Law 10'
Use Holy Sword
Call Warhorse @ 4th
Fear as Samurai @ 6th (Replaces Turn Undead)
Cast Spells @ 9th
Only two non-weapon/armor magic items (Limits magic items)
Never trade in a weapon for two skills (The tithe)
No L or G henchmen and only Fighter types (Multi/Dual class ok) (replaces LG henchbeings)
Never give up an opportunity to fight (Doesn't mean kill everyone everywhere, but will never sue for peace or accept it) (replaces alliances and association with Evil)
Good actions require atonement and quest
Lawful act ends champion-hood

[David]

Howdy Aaron,

I think this is a GREAT start!

I would suggest:

Detect Chaos 60'
+2 Saves
Immune to Disease
Lay on Hands FOR DAMAGE
Cause Disease
Protection from Law 10'
Use a Holy Sword (rarely applicable to non-paladins!)
Cause Fear as a SAMURAI (at 6th lvl, I think)
Call Warhorse at 4th
Cast Spells at 9th
-AND-
Restricted to ten magical items -- one armor, one shield, four weapons, four other items (I let potions slide)
Limited Wealth -- give excess to Church or charity
Tithe 10% of ALL gains
Only CE henchbeings
Only form permanent alliances with CE beings (although CN, NE okay DEPENDING on the situation)
Never associate with LAWFUL beings
A GOOD Act requires an atonement and quest
A LAWFUL Act ends their paladin-hood

[aaronthecow]

Why detect Chaos?

[David]

Sorry! That should be Detect Law...! Good catch, Aaron!

Am I going to see you this weekend?