Languages and Scripts

[charbidge]

Not working and playing well with others.

[charbidge]

Okay, if I have this language thing straight...

Andoralln, with an Intelligence of 14, speaks Common at 4, and is literate (L). He speaks two other languages and gets two additional NWPs, and has four fluency points.

Because he grew up in the border-country between Verbonc and northwestern Celene, he speaks Elven (High elven?) and either Gnomish or Sylven elven at 2. If he spends two fluence points on each language, he can speak them at 3, AND be literate, about as well as Dave speaks French and German.

Ulaanbatar, with Intelligence 18, and one NWP devotied to being a Linguist, speaks Common plus seven other languages at 3 each. She has eight fluency points to spend.

She knows Comon at 4, and is literate (L). She speaks and is literate in Baklunish and Oeridian at 3 (as well as Dave's French and German) for no further expense, because their written forms are related to Common. She adds her first fluency point to madoer Baklunish to make it 4L, so she can deal with Ancient Baklunish as well.

She speaks Gnomish at 3, but since she was raised in a Gnomish community, fluency points two and three go to making it 4 L so she can be bi-lingual (she knows all the jokes, too!).

Her High Elven is at 3 She spends her fourth and fifth fluency points to raise it up to 4 L.

Her Suloise is at 3, but requires her sixth fluency point for literacy in it's peculiar written form. Besides, it's a dead language, except for a bastardized form (the "Cold Tongue of the northestern Frost, Ice, and Snow barbarians), and the degenerate version (like San Jose "pocho" Spansih compared to the classical Castillan), so she reads it at 4, but speaks it at only 2.

She peaks Flann at 3, but it has no written forms. She spends fluency point seven to develop familiarity with all three dialects.

Her Rhenee is at 3 L, since they use the same writen forms as Common and all. She spends her eight and last fluency point to attain native fluency at 4L (just so she can one day stick it to that mouthy Rhenee fighter, with her Gnomish sense of timing, just when it will be the MOST embarrassing).

[Andy]

Of course I'm not advocating giving anyone something for free, but just using the 24Q's or whatnot to establish their background and/or what they really have had exposure to.

>>>> And to the point, can you even conceive a PC thief with a truly REASONABLE excuse to be familiar with a script but not the language? Jyolli? Thailine? Sean? Goldi? Bambi? I think not...

Suppose Dobbie was a theif. Well, my thought was something like a scenario where shipments from Neregan come in via ship to Greyhawk, a thief might grab copies of some of the shipping list, and find out what some of the symbols meant, so he could know which wagon to pilfer from on its way to market. Neregan is a live language, and it's concievable to find someone in Greyhawk to interpret, so it would seem generally reasonable to me. Yes, even minor differences (writing cursive vs. block letters even) could throw that all off, so again, it would seem resonable to half or quarter or otherwise reduce chances as appropriate rather than just throw it all out the window.

However, as you pointed out, I certainly agree that it would be very easy to get the wrong idea about more complex ideas, with appropriate consequences. And it's unlikely that a tomb-maker would leave instructions on its walls on how to avoid the traps they set; more likely they'd tell the story of the buried hero...so from a thief's standpoint, less useful, other than assessing the possible value of what they could find in the tomb.

I think Craig's kind of got the idea - unfettered open-ended 'roll for it and see' type abilities are much more in the traditional DND direction, where if your class determines everything instead of specific skills. Obviously not the way you're headed here.

For me, I like the distinction seen in the Indiana Jones movies, where Indy can generally run linguistic rings around the other 'thief' types (he's obviously a scholar of the languages in question) yet his vast skills are still useless to communicating with the amerids at the beginning of the 1st movie; Dr. Rene Belloq was the expert there.

Now you say, "Ah, Andy you are only reinforcing MY points" - sure - I don't think we're that far off in thought on this. If I ran a Greyhawk-based thief into a Neregan temple and the party took a wrong turn due to their 'read languages' skill leading into a pit of crocodiles instead of Sobek's treasure room, believe me, I'd be the last to complain. However, it does seem like someone that spends their entire life (say an 11th level thief?) picking up bits and pieces would have a better chance at steering the party the right direction.

I have some more examples of the 'bits and pieces' theory here, but I'm curious to your responses to the above.

[David]

Hiya Craig,

Actually, you have a couple of minor errors in your math, but the right basic idea.

In the case of Andorallan, his 14 intelligence gives him access to his native language plus FOUR languages (as well as qualifying him for Mensa). And such an intelligence score would also give him 4 fluency points. If, however, he re-allocated any of his languages slots into skills (up to half, round-down), then he would LOSE one fluency point for each re-allocated language (the logic being that each language builds on the others, even unrelated ones, in helping you master all the languages you know -- that's the theory behind having language majors get a minor or at least a couple years of a third language and my life experiences COMPLETELY support this view).

Thus if Andorallan spoke Common (native, so automatically a 4 and he's not a barbarian or shaman, so automatically literate) plus two more languages, he would only have TWO fluency points to put into those languages (the other two being "lost" when the other two "potential" languages were converted to skills).

I assume that all versions of racial languages (which remain in contact) are one-off dialects -- if you speak one version, you get all related ones at a -1 (for a 4 speaker, that means fully-functional, but with accent, which is the correct parallel). Thus, if Andorallan speaks Elvish (whatever flavor) at a 2 (default), he would speak all other dialects (grey, sylvan, high, sea, but NOT drow) at 1 (about as good as my Japanese aka "where potty" and "me hungry"). Since Elvish uses its own script, he would have to purchase literacy to be able to read Elvish. The same would apply to Gnomish (which uses a different script, Dwarvish).

Thus, if Andorallan wanted, assuming he converted two language to skills, he could speak Elvish (unless otherwise specified, always assumed to be High Elvish) at a 2 with literacy and Gnomish (unless otherwise specified always assumed to be Rock Gnomish) at a 2 with literacy. Or he could shift either (or both) to 3 with no literacy. Or, if he did NOT convert any languages to skills, you would be spot on in your analysis.

In the case of Ulaanbaatar, you're just about right on. I do consider Ancient Baklunish a distinct language rather than dialect due to linguist drift over the last millenia (halve your score or purchase the language separately with a fluency bonus equal to half of your Baklunish score). But even without buying it, Ulaanbataar would read Ancient Baklunish at a 2 if she had (modern) Baklunish at a 4.

Also, you're correct about being able to "get" in-culture things, including Gnomish jokes, better based on linguist fluency -- culture and language are INTIMATELY tied (I have stories if you want). Just speaking a language doesn't mean understanding the culture it comes from completely -- that comes with native fluency (to some degree or another) -- but the speaking it well sure helps in revealing mindset.

I think I will be lumping Suloise in with the other "Western" scripts, so you will NOT have to spend extra to read it.

For Flan, the best bet would be to raise your fluency with one of the dialects (Lakota, Huron, or Salish -- probably one of the first two, given where she's from) to a 4 and trust you can handle the others at a 2 or 3. Technically, Olman is also a Flan dialect too, but I haven't quite worked out how I want them to all interact (Ray? Help? My expertise is in city-building cultures, so I know quite a bit more about the Aztec and Maya than Amerind tribes).

But basically, assuming Ulaanbaatar didn't reroute any languages to skills, she looks like she's basically worked out (you'll find high int charcters get a LOT of bang for the buck out of taking the linguist skill, especially bards and druids).

And Elf, I will tackle your post in a bit, but basically I disagree unless you have a skill like "cypher" or (to a LESSER degree) "linguist".

[David]

Oh, yeah, as a language nerd, Catalan is NOT Spanish. It's its own language...

And before you ask, "what's the difference between a language and a dialect?" let me say that scholars have been pounding on that for centuries but my favorite answer is "the difference between a language and a dialect is that the former has an army and a navy." It's all about perception...

[charbidge]

"... An Army and a Navy..." I LIKE that!

[David]

Elf, lessee....

There aren't regular shipments to Greyhawk from Neregan, Zakhara, Shou Lung, Kozakura, Wa, Kor'yo, or even Olman lands. There is some trade with Ahlissa, and through that some trade with Medegia, but that would be it. Now, there ARE immigrants from all of these cultures, but we're talking early 1800s world-wide travel, so these folks have gone through major hoops to get where they are and are basically cut off from their homes (other than world-spaning mages and the like -- a big industrial niche, if you ask me!).

Now, a thief or bard in Greyhawk could go OUT OF THEIR WAY to find a Zakharan scholar or literate Kara-Turan (PCs might all be literate, but the average schlub is certainly NOT, especially in these cultures!) from whom the character could learn the script. Heck, there're (wimpy) Nereganti priests who MIGHT have the time, skill, and inclination to teach heiroglyphs to a follower and certainly a number of Medegian ones who could, but all of these scenarioes CLEARLY have the thief/bard/whatever going above and beyond the average call-of-duty to pick these skills up. And that, to me, ALWAYS means buying a special skill.

This afternoon, I had lunch with Kari and I showed her my (four sentence) essay for my Arabic class. She took one look and completely agreed with my stance on this. Heck, my essay even had many words that Kari could recognize, like my full name and my address, but even once I pointed out the relevant glyphs, she found it rather tough to find other examples of the characters (admittedly, we are talking about a complex script here, but Midani/Arabic/Zakharan as well as Hindi both are). And that's to say nothing of pictograms...especially those with radicals which change their meaning...

Now, back to the point, let's look at Dobbie. His life and exposure to Shou Lung (Chinese) is somewhat reminiscent of my own exposure to Japanese. Unless Jason buys the language with writing, I can TOTALLY see him being someone SURROUNDED by Japanese, but lacking the interest/effort/time/free slots representing commitment elsewhere to really knuckle down and learn what all those funny shapes mean (I guess I wasn't such a good student when we were roommates). Sure, today I can pick out beef, exit, mountain, man, woman, gold, dragon, etc, but a) I actually once spoke Japanese at a 1 and b) I CERTAINLY have the skill linguist or something similar. There are plenty of people around the world who spend their life in another language and never even learn the basics (my old neighbors, come to mind!), much less master the complexities of script.

Now, let's say, for the sake of argument, that there were regular drop-ship Borlon shipments from Neregan to Greyhawk and, say, Jyolli made a point of trying to learn a couple of symbols to figure out what was in the crates. Wait, isn't that above the call of duty already? And we're just talking ONE script here -- if thieves deserve "at least some roll" then they'd have to do the same for Norsk, Medegian, Midani, Shou Lung, Hindi, Olman, and Babylonian as well as Elvish, Dwarvish, Draconic, and Orcish (to name just a few).

Hey, that's WAAAY beyond me, and I AM a linguist who's devoted LOTS of time to the study of language. All I can claim is three scripts (Latin, Cyrillic, and am JUST learning Arabic). I could make a retarded roll at Japanese and an even lamer (less than 1% at Chinese). Count me TOTALLY out for real Egyptain heiroglyphs, Sumerian/Babylonian Cuneiform, Messoamerican glyphs, any of the Indic scripts, Ethiopian (I didn't even bother with a Dnd parallel), Nordic runes, Oghman runes, Tolkein's Elvish or Dwarvish, Klingon, etc...

You may recall when we went to Disneyland a zillion year ago, before anyone showed me those silly cards at the Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom ride, I was already doing pattern recognition and decoding parts of the inscription. But, while that used a different script, it was still my native language, so all I was doing was recognizing patterns and applying a cypher (again, a skill I have clearly bled for). Most people were lost (including Heidi WITH the silly card!). I did the same when you printed out Tyris=Flare's note in the early 90s when she and Andar kidnapped Damelia. I got the gist of what you were writing cuz I looked for patterns in the writing. And as I pointed out, this is covered (this is what I was talking about when I mentioned reading a known language in a foreign script, such as the differences between Croatian and Serbian). Decoding an alien script without this linkage, however, is something the US government (and crooks) would pay zillions for. I can't see a low-to-mid-level thief having a native skill a modern super-computer struggles with. Sorry.

What makes MUCH more sense is for a thief interested in mastering "all sorts of foreign scripts" and pseudo-scripts (the Indiana Jones one, for instance) to take a special skill in cryptography and everyone else to be restricted.

Try this example: a spaceship crashed to Earth with no one aboard. Who do you think would be more able to deduce the various labels in the wreckage -- a pick pocket from the streets of Rome or a professor of linguistics from Stanford or a government cypher expert... Lack of exposure clearly leaves the thief and scholar out in the cold, while it's only a hiccup to the NSA guy...

As for Indy, he did NOT speak many of those language, hence his "missing" stuff. He had familiarity with the scripts through knowledge of the modern versions of similar languages (knowing Shou Lung and using it to get a roll vs Ogre Magi, for instance). Otherwise, he could have just read all the stuff with little or no effort.

Make sense now?

[charbidge]

Okay, Andoralln gets High Elvish and Gnomish at 2 L. he can get by either spoken or written with his childhood neighbors. That totally works for me. Ulaanbatar's Flann 4 is in Huron, so she can manage the other two. She has a fluency point to shift from Suloise (that L she no longer has to buy) which can go to make her a 4 in it. It's a dead language (outside the Tivalot penninsula) so she doesn't really know how it SOUNDS, but I figure that for her it's like Latin, while what they speak on the penninsula after twelve-hundred years is the quivalent of Italian. THEY think it's still Suloise, and they probably WRITE it as Suloise, but I'll bet they've changed it a lot over the centuries without being aware of it (or admitting to it, anyway. That inferiority complex, compounded by centuries of chewing on the humilation of losing the war and being chased like RUNAWAY SLAVES across four thousand miles, would certainly fuel denial).

[David]

Sounds great, Craig.

One quick thing about Suloise (and languages in my Dnd world in general), because of the intervention of powerful, long-lived beings, I assume magic-rich languages do not evolve as quickly or readily as on our Earth (where 1700 years == totally different per linguists). As a results and via contact with such beings, the Scarlet Brotherhood speak "pure" or "true" Suloise. Not totally realistic, perhaps, but given the world and that on the whole planet I've pared it down to less than 50 living languages, it works for a fantasy world (again, with the "you need long-lived and/or magical guidance" to make it happen).

[Jeff]

Where do the Mayan and the Aztec and the Incan languages fit into all of this??

[charbidge]

Okay, no language drift for the Scarlet Brotherhood. Here's my take on the status of Suloise as a language in the rest of the Flanaess. Two real-life historical events closely approximate the migration of the Suloise-speaking people after the Rain of Colorless Fire destroyed their homeland.
First, the waves of eastern European migrations in the 400-500 AD period, westward into the Western Roman Empire to escape the Huns. I recently was exposed to a book with the central theme that it was that series of migrations which overwhelmed the Roman organization and led to the fall of that Empire at the end of the 400s.

The Suloise fled their devastated land in a similar wave, and their behavior (being Suloise) toward the lands and peoples through which they passed was such that every ONE of those peoples side with the pursuing Oeridians. "Yes, Sir, those Suloise DID pass this way. I hope you catch'em, and when you do, give'em a kick for ME, would ya?"

The Oeridians were SOOOO mad at the Suloise that the largest and most powerful tribe, the Aerdy, chased them all the way to the great swamp that is at the beginning of the Tivalot Penninsula before they quit. "There they go. Let'em live in THERE. If they ever come out, we'll be waiting." Thus was born the Aerdy's Great Kingdom. All the other Oeridian tribes dropped out along the way, and settled throughout the Flanaess.

The Second event was the :ong March of the Chines Communist army in 1934. Over 100,000 began the retreat to avoid destruction at the hands of the Nationalists. a year and nearly 4000 miles later, Mao and only 8,000 REALLY tough survivors formed the nucleus for the re-forged Peoples' Liberation Army, which went on to win.

Many, many fleeing Suloise fell out of ranks during the 4,000 mile flight across the Flanaess, turning aside to be absorbed, bypassed, ignored, or killed by the waves of vengeful Oeridians. Utterly defeated, clearly abandoned by their gods, these lost peoples settled where and how they could, and in the following twelve centuries tried to persuade their neighbors that they WEREN'T Suloise at ALL, or at least not like those evil marauders who passed througn with fire and sword so long ago. These were the Suloise who lost their language and gave up all but the most innocuous customs and character traits (which is why Ulaanbatar is so affable and easy to get along with). As opposed the the PURE Suloise of the Tvalot penninsula, and those among the Frost, Ice, and Snow barbarians, the Flanaess Suloies (referred to as The Fallen by those whose descendents make up the Scarlet Brotherhood) have over the centuries been mixed, however slightly, with the blood of the lesser peoples, barbarian Oeridians, savage Flannae, and even a few (shudder) tainted by the hated Baklunish.

Those descended from the survivors of the Suloise Long March, whether from the Barbarian North or the Tivalot Penninsula, ar born of hardy stock, untainted by the blood of lesser peoples (well, among the Northerners, maybe a little) and with all the arrogance and stubborness of the original breed still intact (although for some reason all the Mages went south, since those Northerners don't LIKE magic at ALL).

[David]

Excellent write-up, Craig! Ochen bolshoy!

And I would totally agree with your real-world analogies too!

Please note, I assume that Suloise as a living language is ONLY spoken in the Scarlet Brotherhood/Tilvanot Pennisula. It survives in scraps of Common (much as Sanskrit roots still occur in English) as well as in rather deformed versions. One is Lendorian, spoken among isolated communities among the Lendor Isles (that weren't absorbed by the native Medegian/Greek culture). A second is Fruz or Cold Tongue used by certain tribes of the Ice, Snow, and Frost barbarians (although it was greatly influenced by the native Norsk [and I resist blending Suel and Norse because the gods are WAY too different!]). The third is Cynidicean, used by the surviving descendants of the lost city of the Cynidicea (where it actually didn't evolve too much, just shifted a bit).

I assume that culturally, the Lendorians and Cynidiceans did the best job of maintaining Suloise beliefs and ideals, but the former were overwhelmed by Medgeian philosophy and are now far more pacifistic and the later lost touch with their culture and have turned to new deities just to survive. The Fruz-speakers are still brutal, but, like their Nordic neighbors, have pretty much abandoned magic as well as many aspects of city-dwelling.

As for Jeff's question, if you look at my language list, you'll see Olman (Mayan), Maztican (Nahuatl/Aztec) and a note that I couldn't find a place to locate the Inca on Oerth. The Olman culture has passed its zenith and lives in the Amedio Jungles. The Mazticans live in the same region and are now the main "political power" brokers.

[charbidge]

Ulaanbatar's people, and the other Suloise in the Flanaess, "the Fallen" or "Those Who Fell Away" from the Great Flight, were bypassed by the vengeful Oeridians, and over the centuries lost their Suloise attitude (well...) cultureal heritage (for the most part), and language. Ulaanbatar can READ Suel at 4, but she din not know it SOUNDED until she met that Scarlet Brotherhood monk.

Those who completed the Long March had to be the toughest, most dedicated, and most fanatically Suloise of all. I can picture some ill feelings between their descendents and the descendents of "Those who fell Away," whom they would regard as unworthy of being considered of the Blood at all.

In fact, their centuries of living cheek-to-jowl with the lesser breeds has probably led to... mixing. Ulaanbatar might not be pure Suloise AT ALL, but a mongrel with (shudder) OERIDIAN blood from somewhere in the last twelve centuries!

Those who Fell Away might look at it differently. Ulaanbatar referred to that monk when they met as one of "those who fled," (HA! I anticipated this conflict at FIRST SIGHT! Gawd, I'm good!). It will be interesting to play this out sometime in the future. Anyway, she can read it at 4, but her spoken Suloise is gonna be something she'll have to work on once she finds a source.

[David]

A link to the nifty-new language list for the world is: www.geocities.com/buddhabear_sj/gaming/download/Languages4Dnd.pdf

[David]

I've just made a minor update to the file above, this time to include various scripts explicitly. Check it out.