Languages and Scripts

[David]

This is a topic that’s kind of bounced around for some time. We’ve discussed different scripts in some detail for human languages, but here’s an update for human scripts as well as a list of the various (basic) non-human linguistic scripts.

The point here is NOT to bury the players under yet another layer of minutia, but to spell out in detail (outside of a game-crisis) which languages “work” with which others. What follows is a list of the various scripts (human and otherwise), along with various languages which use these scripts. The point is that if a being is unfamiliar with a given script, then it’s ability to read languages in that script is nil. As I did before, I’ve intentionally over-simplified the various languages and scripts (a reasonable benefit of groups of divine forces attempting to enforce orthodoxy), since this is a game (and really, in a game spanning a half-dozen worlds and several dozen races, there should be SOME variation…).

[glow=blue,2,300]Human Scripts -- example languages[/glow]
Common -- Baklunish, Oerdian, Hobbitish, Mannish, Cidrian, Queenslander
Midani -- Genie, Salamander, Sylph, Triton, most elemental beings
Medegian -- Titan, Centaur, Minotaur, Merman, Medusa
Nereganti -- Sphinx, Morganti, Koiné, Neshfalese
Babylonian -- Suloise, Shedu, Lammasu
Hindi -- Rakshasa, Naga, Yuan-ti, Zhendi
Shou Lung -- Nihon'go, Kor’yo, Tabotian, Spirit Folk, Korobokuru, Ogre Magi
Olman -- Couatl
Norsk -- Dwarvish, Giantish, Ettin, Gnome

[glow=red,2,300]Non-Human Scripts -- example languages[/glow]
Elvish -- Faerie folk (Pixie, Nixie, Sprite, Leprechaun, Brownie, etc), Nymph, Dryad, Satyr, Drowic
Dwarvish -- Giantish, Ettin, Gnome, Norsk
Orcish -- Ogre, Irda, Gnoll, Flind, Scro
Goblinoid -- Hobgoblin, Bugbear, Kobold*
Draconic -- K'thoi, Troglodyte, Firenewt, Lizardman*, Kobold*
Titan -- Medegian, Centaur, Minotaur, Merman, Medusa
Genie -- Midani, Salamander, Sylph, Triton, most elemental beings
Illithid -- Githyanki, Githzerai
Sahuaghin -- note, this is uses woven strands, much as pre-Columbian Inca records are thought to

All characters (except barbarians and shaman) are assumed to be literate in their own language’s script, but must “purchase” the ability to read other scripts for one fluency point each (assuming the PC knows a language that actually uses that script). Please note that just because a language uses the same script as another does NOT mean it can be read -- we can all read English (if you’re actually reading this!) but try to correctly sound out, much less tell me what “Weso³ych Œwi¹t Bo¿ego Narodzenia” says…! Also, those languages marked with a * do NOT have a single script which it uses, but rather uses whatever is culturally convenient (like the scripts of Croatian and Serbian in the real world).

Example: Mikhail speaks Common, Elvish, Nereganti, and Dryad. Therefore he can automatically read only Common, but must purchase the ability to read the scripts of Elvish (and therefore Dryad) and Nereganti each separately. Total cost is two fluency points for both scripts (Dryad would be free since it uses the Elvish script). As a result, if Mikhail encountered text in Neshfalese or Drowic, he might be able to sound out much of it, but not read the written material.

Example (from the real world): David speaks (to one degree or another) English, French, German, Spanish, Russian, Japanese, and Arabic (in progress). As a result, I can reasonably sound out Italian, Portuguese, Danish, Swedish, etc (other than language-specific glyphs) as well as Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Serbian, etc (even though I can barely understand Russian, I can sound out most any language which uses the Cyrillic script), and (to my recent surprise) even some Persian (due to similarities to Arabic). Unfortunately, I’ve never really mastered Japanese writing, so the few Kanji I know don’t help me much with Chinese characters (please recall, I did mention I simplified the scripting system). Similarly, I can handle the consonants of Finnish, but the vowels are pretty much an enigma.

To again illuminate why these linguistic details are so important, please keep in mind that in the real world, it took literally HUNDREDS of years to break the “code” of Egyptian hieroglyphs, and really only because the Rosetta Stone allowed Champollion to compare the glyphs with the sounds associated with them (in Demotic) with the meanings of them (in Greek). In a similar way, it was only through a TREMENDOUS amount of guess work that we’ve managed to decipher SOME ancient Mayan glyphs. And despite the work of hundreds of archeologists from dozens of cultures, we’ve yet to figure out either the glyphs of the Harrapan culture or the Inca’s (theorized) woven texts. Don’t buy it? Try making heads or tails out of Japanese, Arabic, or Russian scripts (I’ll give you some examples if you want, but unfortunately this site can’t even handle Cyrillic, much less the others).

PLEASE NOTE, I MADE A MINOR MODIFICATION TO THE POST

[David]

Well, I can see that Proboards doesn't quite support Polish either...

[Andy]

That's acutally kind of cool - that way I know my Babylonian character would dig Suloise more than Bakloonish, for example. Do Githianki and Githerazai share the same script?

[David]

I would assume that all of these scripts are more like "families" of scripts than complete sets. That's as much for the sake of simplicity as to prevent you guys from stringing me up (not everyone's the language nerd I am).

What do I mean? Well, think of the Common script as Latin-1 (for you non-techies, further info is coming), while Midani is much like a Middle Eastern font-set (including Hebrew and pan-Arabic complex script as well as Persian) and Medegian would include Greek and all the Cyrillic derivitives.

Said another way, English uses a e i o u c and n but not ä á à é è ë ê ì ï ö ó ü ú ç ñ etc. And yet, it isn't too tough to master German, French, Italian or Spanish because the BASIC set of letters is the same. And even though the pronouciation of Polish and Czech is (from the English-speaking perspective) odd, with only a little bit of work the letter-to-sound correspondence isn't too hard to work out (can't put any examples on this board, sorry). The same case can be made for Finnish and Turkish, neither of which are even remotely related to English's family of languages. Basically, (from an English-speaking perspective) those language use "our" scripting system plus certain additional glyphs for their own needs (yes, ethnocentric, but easier to write and understand).

So, someone who reads Common might encounter (say) Mannish or Hobbit (neither of which is related to the Common Tongue of Oerik/Oerth/the Flanese), but be able to sound out the MAJORITY of letters, with (perhaps) a few consonant differences and some vowel shifts, plus a handful of glyphs that are totally enigmatic. It might be somewhat like determining the correct pronounciation of süß or élève to a monoglot English-speaker (probably more like reading Turkish, really, but again, I can't post those letters on this board and the distinction wouldn't mean much to most of the gamers reading this anyway).

In a similar vein, while Shou Lung's script has major overlap with Nihon'go's and Kor'yo's there would be linguistic peculiarities to each, so only the gist might be decernable (yes, this is a MAJOR simplification of the real writing systems of China, Japan, and Korea, but again, it's a game and most of the players aren't langauge nerds). Without full unicode compliance, I can't show examples, I'm afraid.

To answer your question directly, I would imagine that (without tipping my hand) the writing systems of the Githyanki and Githzerai have major overlap, but like French and German, have unique characters and/or glyphs to themselves. Both have only passing similarity to what illithid actually read, but the structure is there so someone familiar with one would be able to figure out parts of the other. It might not make sense at all, but they could sound it out.

So, I guess what I'm dancing all around trying to say is:

a) just because you can read the script a language is written, does NOT mean you can read the langauge, but you CAN sound out the majority of characters. Thus, a thief can use their Read Language skill. Example: Sie können die meisten Buchstaben hier lesen, aber was bedeuten sie? Est-ce que vous avez aucune idée?

b) if you cannot even read the script of a language, you REALLY can't even guess what the various glyphs sound like. Unless a thief understands a related language, her Read Languages skill is useless. Example: there's a reason I write some of my (public) notes in Russian; with only six characters of overlap, it's pretty safe if you guys see them. An example of related languages with different scripts, BTW, would be Croatian and Serbian (basically the same language, with the former using a Latin-based script and the later using a Cyrillic-based one). Another would be Maltese (a dialect of Arabic that uses a Latin-based script).

c) because certain scripts have NO similarity to others, such languages should be TOTALLY enigmatic until the "code" is broken, either via translation of a parallel, multilingual inscription (like the Rosetta Stone) or magical spells (comprehend languages) and then a linguist working "backwards" from the results. Example: centuries of scholars pounded their heads against the pyramids trying to figure out heiroglyphs until Napolean's goons found the Rosetta Stone. Similarly, it was really because of the Mayan's extensive use of numerals in their histories and astronomical guides that later scholars were able to leverage this information over decades to "break the code" for the basic concept behind the glyphs, then with the living language make the jump to syllabic scripts. Remember, scholars have been looking at Linear A for time out of mind and yet can't get past "well, it's PROBABLY syllabic and might sound like X, but that's probably just gobbledegook"...and that's knowing Linear B as well as related languages...

As for your Babylonian character and Suloise... Well, a couple of things (because I'm both a purist and perfectionist).

First, I would assume that the LANGUAGE of the Tuskar, Khazadhi, Shashakari, and Vishni are based off of Babylonian (which is related to Midani), but these people LOST their ancestral writing system and use Common's script today instead (see above for some real-world parallels/examples).

Second, inside my head I'm having trouble justifying my linkage to Babylonian and Suloise. Call me a nerd, but... The Sumerians, who in real life invented the cuniform (writing system) used by the Babylonians actually distinguished themselves internally by calling themselves "the black headed (haired) people". And yet the Suloise were bent around the axel about being fair haired and eyed.

This problem stems from the fact that when I started using the World of Greyhawk, Gygax never bothered to explain (in the original version of the Gazateer that I used until the end of college) what cultures the Baklunish and Suloise represented. Today, with later writing, I get that the Baklunish were supposed to be pseudo-Arabs and the Suloise pseudo-Nazi-Aryans. Clearly, I got one right...but in my world, without input, I cast the Baklunish as proto-Celts (hey, in my defense, they built Tovag Baragu!). In addition, I wanted a Greek culture, so I hijacked the Medegians and futher wanted players to have access to ANY Earth mythology, so (with your help) forged the Tuskar. As a result, I've been "cleaning up" a consistency mess ever since. I'm not interested in conforming to the published works now, but I DO want to feel that I'm not betraying the underlying concepts (unlike Peter Jackson's version of the Two Towers)!

So, suggestions? Perhaps the Babylonians were a slave population of the Suloise who escaped during the Rain of Colorless Fire and Invoked Devastation? They learned their writing from their masters, but used their own langauge (as most Amerind and sub-Saharan languages are recorded using Latin-based scripts today...!). I feel guilty that I'm "stealing" the accomplishment of "first written language" from the Sumerians and giving them to a fantasy-race of über-racists. Perhaps the Suloise learned writing from the Babylonians and then enslaved them? They are "those kind of people"... And it would explain the distinction of hair color between the Sumerians/Babylonians and the Suloise...

Thoughts?

[Artec]

too much time on your hands hjeheheeheeh

[onewoman]

david said:

All characters (except barbarians and shaman) are assumed to be literate in their own language’s script, but must “purchase” the ability to read other scripts for one fluency point each (assuming the PC knows a language that actually uses that script).

[glow=red,2,300]warning, newbie question[/glow]:
where do fluency points come from? my character ziyi speaks four different languages. two of them, at least, need to be purchased. how is that done? (i admit to putting this off as a detail i could resolve at a later point. well, you've given me the perfect reminder and opportunity to find out how i should be handling this area of my character sheet. my apologies for the delay.)

[Andy]

Hmm... Thought provoking as ususal Mr. Mohr.

>>> if you cannot even read the script of a language, you REALLY can't even guess what the various glyphs sound like. Unless a thief understands a related language, her Read Languages skill is useless.

I think there are a few assumptions here that I may beg to differ with. My supposition isn't that the theives 'Read Languages' Skill is designed to be able to allow the thief to engage in a linguistic discourse about the material they're trying to decypher, but just to merely get in, get some pointers in the right direction, then make a run for it. Personally, if I was a thief, I'd certainly run around and find out what the word for 'Lock' or 'Trap' or 'Treasure' was in every language I could.

For example, a common-only speaking thief based in Greyhawk could theoretically have come across some Nereganti glyphs at one time or another. There's no restriction to Nereganti characters there, and several have showed up in the past, on Oerth, Neriganti is a live language...so why not? Said thief would obviously not have a chance at any subtle nuances, nor necessarily be able to pronounce them (It's not 'Talk Languages'), but might recognize some words at a par on their level-based percentage.

Given backgrounds, certainly though, it makes sense that there are some situations where dead or remote cultures' languages (as Egyptian was dead in our world and took forever to decode) would have no chance, that makes sense...just perhaps not your example.

>>>> First, I would assume that the LANGUAGE of the Tuskar, Khazadhi, Shashakari, and Vishni are based off of Babylonian (which is related to Midani), but these people LOST their ancestral writing system and use Common's script today instead (see above for some real-world parallels/examples).

That sounds fine to me. I've always let on that Tyris=Flare neither spoke nor understood the writing of common well.

>>>> The Sumerians, who in real life invented the cuniform (writing system) used by the Babylonians actually distinguished themselves internally by calling themselves "the black headed (haired) people". And yet the Suloise were bent around the axel about being fair haired and eyed.

Haha - okay, you're looking for perfect parallels between lesser known facts of ancient races on our world and Oerth. Gygax may not have either had any idea about creating such parallels, or he could have just plain gotten things wrong, both things have happened elsewhere. Celts and Arabs weren't positioned near each other in our world, but it's interesting to think about what may have happened if they had been. I personally think the best explanation lies in the two cultures being different, one enslaving the other / one uprising against the other notwithstanding, it could even be at this point, the answer to that question in modern Oerth depends on which historian you ask. (Perhaps Tyris=Flare would give you a different answer than Taarna.) Nobody's asked any of the few creatures still around that were there.

In my mind you've painted the Silouise as the more accomplished culture; but the Babylonians as more studious and ancient. Seems like an uprising by the Silouise (or semi-conquering, as the Romans did to the Greeks) against the Babylonians makes most sense.

-A-

[David]

So many responses, so little time...

Ray, while you may be right that today is not as tight as others days, I think that I just look at language in a fundamentally different way than most. To me, these are burning questions that NEED resolution. I know that sounds weird, but, well aren't I? How many 39 years old would tackle Arabic on a whim, eh? I'm a language nerd, quilty as charged, no contest, Judge...! C'mon, getting marooned somewhere with a totally different language which I have to use to survive sounds like a fun challenge to me...!

Angela, thanks for asking! The basics of how I do language acquistion are found at www.geocities.com/buddhabear_sj/gaming/howdoi.html#create under step FIVE. Those rules, however, aren't totally complete, so I've re-posted them with more info below...

Fifth, choose the languages the character speaks. Write these languages in order of ability on the character sheet, starting with the character's native language. Normally, linguistic ability is limited to everyday conversations (see below). Nearly all characters are assumed to likewise be somewhat literate, as appropriate to the language and the character's intelligence. When dealing with related languages, if a character knows two, he gets another related language for free. Likewise, if the character knows three, he gets a fourth and fifth related language for free. If a character speaks a given language, he automatically has some understanding of the dialects of that language -- from half fluency rating, round-down to -1 fluency rating, see the DM for details.

Fluency ratings for languages vary from 4 to 1. A rating of 4 is reserved for native speakers (absolutely no accent), 3 indicates functional fluency and full command of grammar and culture, 2 allows for conversations (can handle most situations) and 1 means only a basic understanding of the language. Unless otherwise specified, characters are assumed to be level 2. If a character wants an especially good command of a given language, he may lower one language to 1 and raise another 3, or otherwise move around fluency levels. In addition, for each point of intelligence above 10, characters gain an additional fluency point. The character does, however, take a -1 penalty to this fluency point bonus for each language slot redirected as a skill.

Example: Raitan Drake is something of a world traveler. He's also quite bright (16 Int). As a result of his early life and voyages he speaks: Midani (4, native tongue), Archipelican (4, actually 2, but since it is merely a dialect of Midani/Arabic it's at +2), Common (4, no accent), Nihon'go (4, too much time around Tetsuko), Merman (3, for diplomacy with the 'humans of the deep'), Medegian (2, he just picked it up), Koalinth (2, he doesn't often have long discussions with these guys). Now, the way this all works out is: for 16 Int, Raitan gets +5 languages, for a total of 6. As a Mariner, Raitan also gains two more languages for being 6+ level, for a total of 8. He only has seven languages, so one was used as a non-weapon skill. Each language has a initial fluency level of 2, except for his native language which is always 4. Raitan has 5 additional fluency points to spend (16 [Int] - 10 - 1 [for a redeployed language slot] = 5). So, he added two to Common, two to Japanese and one to Merman. The net result is that he could easily use his verbal skills to pass himself off as a Bedouin, an Islander, a Westerner or a Nihon'jin. Likewise, Raitan speaks excellent Merman and can carry on decent conversations in Medegian and Koalinth.

Regional languages are very common on Oerth.

In the West, most everyone speaks Common, but other tongues include modern Baklunish (Celtic/Scotish/Irish), ancient Baklunish (dead), Seuloise (dead), Oerdian (dying, like Latin), Medegian (Greek), Ahlissan (Italian-like dialect of Medegian), Tuskar (Arabic dialect), Perrenlander (Swiss German/French), Olman (Aztec), plus various tribal dialects of the Amerinds and Hepmonalanders.

In Zakhara, most everyone speaks either Midani (land-based dialect) or Archipelican (insland-based dialect), although these two langauges are understood at only a -1 penalty by speakers of the other tongue. Other languages in this region include Medegian (Greek), Amazonian (dialect of Medegian spoke by inhabitants of Themyscria), Nereganti (Egyptian), Morganti (ancient, dead), Gujarati (Hindu) and various Hepmonaland dialects.

In the East, most everyone speaks Shou Lung (Mandarin Chinese aka Court Language) or Nihon'go (Japanese aka Trade Language), but other languages include Li Lung (Cantonese), Tabotian (Tibetian), Kor'yo (Korean), Thai and Gujarati (Hindu).

Then, in various other campaign settings you can find languages such as Koiné (Imperial language), Altanean (barbarian tongue), Neshfalese, Queenslander, Mannish, Under-Common, Cidrian and Zhendi. Check out the campaign primer for additional information.

Being able to read and write additional languages adds one slight wrinkle to all of this. All characters not restricted by class (in other words, everyone but barbarians and shaman) are assumed to be fully literate in their NATIVE language. In addition, they can read and write any language which they speak AND which uses the same script as their native language. If they want to be able to read and write a language they speak which uses a different script, then the character must spend an additional fluency point (usually noted as a + after the fluency rating on the character sheet). For this one fluency point, however, the character gains access to ALL languages with that script which the character also speaks (in other words, other known languages with the same script are free!).

Example: Raitan (from the earlier example) speaks languages from four different scripts (Midani/Archipelican, Common, Nihon'go, and Medegian/Merman). His class (mariner) does not preclude literacy, so he can read and write his native tongue of Midani (Arabic) for free and, because it uses the same script, also Archipelican. If Raitan wants to be able to read Common, however, he'll have to spend a fluency point, either dropping his fluency from 4 to 3+ (the + meaning he can read/write the "alien" script, but now has an accent when speaking) -or- drop his fluency with another language, such as Koalinth, to a fluency of only 1 (from 2). The same would also apply (separately) each to Nihon'go and to Medegian/Merman.

For those curious, the real Raitan PC took the skill "linguist" which automatically raises the character's fluency with ALL languages spoken by 1, thus allowing him to afford to read/write (in fluency points) all the diverse linguistic scripts he'd chosen.

Elf, I actually thought of what you suggest for thieves, but must completely reject it for MANY reasons.

First, how does the DM and/or player track what scripts a PC could have been exposed to? By where they live? By where they grew up? By where they are adventuring? No, by what they understand! Anything else would be a nightmare to keep track of (and TOTALLY invite player-abuse..."well, my thief's father was a linguist and his mother was a scholar from Shou Lung...").

Second, while I agree that Read Languages isn't Speak Languages, nearly all written forms I'm familiar with need to be heard (at least in the reader's head) to be understood. Sure, that's true of some (Arabic and Russian for instance) more than others, but even though Chinese characters/kanji and SOME Egyptian and Mayan heiroglyphs are true ideograms, these are the exception, not the rule. Most languages write sounds, rather than pictures, to capture ideas.

Really, the ability to sound out a word or decypher it from context is crucial. Recall, English is a non-declining language and we use a simple script. The same is not true of German (decline), Russian (decline), Finnish (decline), or Arabic (decline AND complex). Moreover, in a static language, such as Japanese, you need to know how to read the grammatical particles to figure out what's acting on what -- sure, the word "human" might be in the sentence, but is it a descriptive adjective ("human treasure") or the subject or the object of what's happening (like being eaten!)? Don't even start me on homographs or paranyms, ESPECIALLY in English! So, I'm, afraid only "a smattering" of linguistic exposure will leave the thief only more anxious but no more certain of some text.

Third, plain experience. Honestly, in real life, I would say I've earned a skill similar to (a low roll in) Read Languages over the years. And yet, until last week, Persian, Arabic, et al were a complete, unfathomable mystery to me. Then I went to the local "Mediterranean" market and realized I could now read almost all of the packages. Sure, I don't know what all the words mean, but I can sound them out and often that's all I need to make the jump to their meaning. I had a similar experience when I learned Russian -- and realized that I could now make sense of most of the Greek glyphs too! Prior to learning Arabic and Russian, respectively, however, text in these scripts was just "so much noise on the paper" or advertising. I think the only reason I didn't have this insight earlier is that when I learned Japanese I never really mastered the writing system.

Now, finally, as for the status of Suloise's script and their relationship to the Sumerians. Honestly, I added the langauge Suloise to those using the Babylonian script mostly because I didn't want it to be "useless". And I like the contrast between the über-fair Suloise and the "black-haired" Sumerians. But I can have all that without having either use the other's script -- much like the Jews maintained Hebrew in both Babylon and Egypt (both of which used other scripts).

Ya see, I've always assumed that, as in our world, the Baklunish/Celts were originally a non-literate society. As a result, they acquired an alphabet from their contact with the Suel. So, logically, Suloise and Ancient Baklunish should use the same alphabet, which would also be the same for (modern) Baklunish, Oeridan (originally non-literate barbarians), and their "child" language of Common. What that does is remove (or occlude, if you will) the entire question of scripts within the main branch of in-game (read: "Western" or "Fantasy European") human languages. Sure "exotic" languages such as Midani (Arabic) and Shou Lung (Chinese) have "alien" scripts, but all the "normal", "standard" ones use the same script. This should scare players less and has some basis in logic (plus diversity is great, but too many glyphs spoil the game!).

Of course, doing this effectively makes Babylonian a "dead" script (it's only used for Babylonian [encountered as a spoken language once out of 25 years of play] plus Lammasu [written only since the creatures speak in tongues] and Shedu [last seen rescuing a lost party en route to Olympus from the Astral Plane circa 1994]). But then, perhaps this just means I'll merge Chun (proto-Midani) with Babylonian. Or use it as only of the scripts from Nog and/or Kadar.

Yeah, I think saying the Suloise and Babylonians had (extensive?) contact with one another works (which I've sort of maintained since the Tower of Illusion plots), but each has their own writing system -- Suloise shared thiers with "the West" and Babylon's was "lost" to war and conflict.

Finally, whatever the past, I TOTALLY agree that each (warlike) culture would have a different view of the past and I TOTALLY enjoy contrasting the two "histories" -- exactly as you pointed out even, with figures like Tyris=Flare and Taarna having radically different views of the same events (sorta like the Crusades in the modern world...!). I think a mutual animosity between the Suel and Babylonians is DEFINITELY called for at the very least -- and helps explain the "wanna-be albino" vs "black-haired" distinction!

Thoughts now?

[Andy]

Green:

>>>> No, by what they understand! Anything else would be a nightmare to keep track of (and TOTALLY invite player-abuse..."well, my thief's father was a linguist and his mother was a scholar from Shou Lung...").

Welll...my categorical response to that would be to consult the player's 24 question sheet or obvious roleplay or other character development writing. 'I know Bob, and he knows...' shouldn't cut it, obviously. If the DM is in doubt, then such a connection should be denied.

>>>> Second, while I agree that Read Languages isn't Speak Languages, nearly all written forms I'm familiar with need to be heard (at least in the reader's head) to be understood.

>>>> Really, the ability to sound out a word or decypher it from context is crucial.

Mmkay - I honestly cannot debate these statements, given my linguistic knowledge. My basic supposition would be that single words or phrases could be useful to someone to determine basic information. Not interpret works like Indiana Jones (he and his father obviously used their linguistic talents to good effect) but more simple concepts. If this is not a true statement (like did the ancient Egyptians have road signs that said 'Stop' or 'Eat At Joes' or 'Men's room' then okay, I'll take your word for it that understanding the entire language, sounds and context, would be important. And said thief would not get a roll.

It just seems to me that the skill is supposed to be useful for breaking into old crypts, getting a clue or two about the lay of the land, and getting out. If the thief must understand the language...then what good is the 'read languages' ability? Certainly, the creators of the system had no idea someone as lingo-nerdy would define languages and scripts in their world as completely as you...buying the appropriate clearly-defined skill makes up for it. Perhaps the right thing to do would be to eliminate that class ability and replace it with another pilfering-related ability instead, such as puzzle solving, or something else appropriate. Hmm...

>>>> Third, plain experience.

I see your point...certainly it's more difficult to learn a word in a script you don't understand. I can write my name in Russian, but I've forgotten what the sounds of the letters were. What you seem to be doing is learning the actual language in such a way to be able to acutally use it. Thus you didn't have to learn each word, you could sound it out and really truly understand it. I'd figured the Thief class ability was just a quickie shortcut way that didn't involve learning the language.

[David]

Dobray Ootra, Anuduru-san...

(I just LOVE mixing languages and since this silly site is so script-restrictive...!)

Using the 24 Questions to "allow" a PC to have access to a script is just shifting the problem from an oral one (the backstory in the player's head) to a written one (he has to write his "homework" for the DM). It doesn't solve the problem of a player claiming something without paying for it if he has a good enough "story". Moreover, and more importantly, it REALLY doesn't make sense for most "street rats" to have a clue about a bunch of alien scripts -- they chose to live by their wits rather than their minds (read: education) for a reason. And to the point, can you even conceive a PC thief with a truly REASONABLE excuse to be familiar with a script but not the language? Jyolli? Thailine? Sean? Goldi? Bambi? I think not...

Every language and culture have a few common "sign words" but these are NOT what people put on their tombs or even their treasure chests. They are symbol like the split-legged figure for the men's room and the close-legged figure in a dress for the womyn's room. Other examples are the red circle with a bar through it and the six triangles in a circle. You can even argue that the STOP sign has become one (since you'll now find it in countries which do not use the Latin script at all!) too. The point is, however, these are either PICTOGRAMS, that is, symbols that have a meaning independant of the sound (if any) they represent -OR- they're culturally based (or both!). Only a handful of languages in the ancient world had such symbols and they would not be a any use unless you had to take a dump or needed to know if something was poison (the skull and crossbones being another). Moreover, without context, they're EASY to get wrong (like the whole deal with the ancient Egyptians "cutting" their snakes in heiroglyphs). For something so "language-transcendant" sure the thief ability MIGHT work. But reading a line of text...?

Try this example: (roughly) what was the last text that a thief used this ability on? I believe it was Pigñolé on the Sunday game trying to read an inscription that read something like "Divinatory Chamber". Sorry, that wouldn't be symbolically depicted unless the language did such a thing for all script (Chinese or heiroglyphic Egyptian) and all the same these are not the sorts of words you'd learn on the street!

Seriously, try to dope out a string of Chinese text. Hey, they're pictures, right? Betcha even if you KNOW what the text is supposed to say, you couldn't pick out a single glyph and get the meaning right. And with a syllabic or alphabetical language (such as Russian, Arabic, Finnish, etc), you're back to NEEDING to know the correspondence between symbol and sound to make sense of the glyphs.

Now, "what about a thief who SPECIALLY learns various writing systems in order to more effectively use his skill?" Yeah, and that would mean the PC BUYS a special "writing system exposure" skill. But pull a thief from literature and apply this test -- does s/he have the background to crack a linguistic code without reference tools? Maybe is s/he is a Benbridge Scholar...but not a thief...

To paraphrase Noam Chomsky, I'm using my human ability to learn a basic structure in order to recognize and use novel structures later. This is a talent thieves should be EXCEPTIONAL at, I'll give you, but unless they've access to racial memory spontaneous decoding of novel systems should be impossible, again per Mr Chomsky. You gotta have exposure or a basis for comparison. That's one of my problems with Star Trek's universal translator, but don't start me on that...

A thief can use Read Languages on any language whose SCRIPT he knows. That means for an illiterate thief, it's a useless skill. And that makes sense. For a thief who hasn't had lots of exposure to other cultures, the uses aren't super huge. But also keep in mind (with the POSSIBLE exception of Suloise) ALL languages of "Western Humanity" use the same script, plus Hobbit and a number of others. Likewise, ALL languages of "Far Eastern Humanity" use another script (family), plus Korobokuru, Spirit Folk, Ogre Magi, etc. So usefulness is a matter of location. If you're not out of you home environment, it's not much of a problem. How long did Daniel Jackson take to decode Go'a'ould or Ancient.....? I believe the quote was "once I figured out how the vowels sounded..."

[charbidge]

Yeah, but... we're operating in a universe in which doing just THAT (picking up bits of REALLY arcane knowledge) is the bread-and-butter of the breed. Tha't probably why the orignal authors said: "Thief, just roll for it." It certainly simplifies the game (Oh. Wait a minute. that totally negates Dave's reason for ALL of the above, and SO much more, so, okay, never mind).

[charbidge]

Where does Rheneee fit in? I didn't see it.

[charbidge]

I like the idea that the Babylonians were the cultured race who helped the ditzy blond Suloise out of the gutter, only to get punted on for their trouble. A HUGE inferiority complex could go a long way to explaining the Suloise attitude toward dark peoples, and their bone-deep inability to work and play well with other children.

[charbidge]

No Flann, either. Do Flann and Rhenee not have written forms? Is that why they aren't mentions? In case you are wondering, I'm re-reading all of the above again and again. It's really kinda neat.

[David]

Hiya Craig,

Good catches!

Let's see. In the Second Edition rules, there is a vague line about a thief's Read Language ability not working on "unknown" script. Most campaigns don't spell out scripts, but then again, most campaigns aren't played on three continents on the main campaign world, three more "main" game-worlds with more than 25 more planets having been visited (I once counted 30 worlds as the total I've used in game to this point, and I'm SURE I've forgotten one or two...plus the new ones I have in my head...!). Also, most campaigns I know of only use one or two human languages instead of 12 or so main ones. All this rule does is clearly spell out what "unknown" script means, so we don't have to have this debate at the gaming table. It also gives PCs a chance to compensate for their own Thief-types.

You are ABSOLUTELY correct. There is no mention of either Flan (Amerind) or Rhenee (Gypsy) scripts. And you're right, it's on purpose.

Other than Sequoyah's Cherokee script (created in the early 1800s) the northern New World peoples on which the Flan are based never had a written language. So, cuz I'm a purist at heart, neither do their fantasy counterparts. There is no written form of the THREE Flan dialects (I've talked it over with Ray and due to geographical constraints, there are only three Flan/Amerind languages, each based on an eco-system -- Lakota for the plains, Huron for the forests and mountains [real-life members of this culture sometimes find the term Iroquois derogatory, so I chose to use Huron instead out of deference], and Salish for the coasts).

As for the Rhenee, again like their real-world counterparts, they have adapted to life in their new "world", using the script of the land in which they find themselves. This means, since ALL Western scripts (including Suloise) use one alphabet, the Rhenee use this one too, even though their language is unrelated to any others spoken on Oerth (I like the idea of Rhenee being more like Basque in that it has no linguistic relatives and could have come from a whole 'nother world...!).

And I do plan on retaining the idea that the Sumerians had writing first and shared the concept with the Suloise. The Suloise invented their own system (much as you have Linear A and B giving rise to Greek), which they then shared (largely unaltered) with the illiterate, ancient Baklunish/Celts (in the centuries prior to the Great War), which became the basis of all Flanese (Western or "European") alphabets (such as Baklunish, Oerdian, Common, etc), as well as Hobbitish.

Meanwhile, the racist, slave-loving Suloise waged war against the Sumerians, who over centuries "became" the Babylonians, a mixed people who were slaves to the Suloise after years of ethnic cleansing but who later broke free thanks to the Baklunish's Rain of Colorless Fire in -422 CY, giving rise to the tribes of the Tuskar in the Bright Desert as well as small communities elsewhere (some of which were largely assimilated by the Oerdians, Baklunish, or even Suloise populations). Remnants of the Sumerian civilization, however, may have survived intact in other locales (such as eastern Zakhara...!).