Post by viking on Jul 31, 2014 18:41:20 GMT -5
Cantrip logic
At the last game, we had a dispute over how the FIRST LEVEL spell Cantrip should work. Here's my logic...
If you're making a real, tangible, long-lasting change to the world (unlocking a door, recoloring a person, disappearing, killing a hamster, distracting someone from combat) then one spell is ONE USE. Technically, you've already exceeded the mandates of the spell (can't do damage or affect combat) and the duration will remain after you're concentrating. Moreover, let's compare actual, targeted spells and their parallel effects...Unlock vs Knock is SECOND level and can only undo TWO locks on a SINGLE portal (no more). Color vs Color is FIRST level and lasts indefinitely (instead of a month). Hide vs Invisibility is SECOND level and while it lasts without concentration, it's also a single, focused spell, not a do ANYTHING utility spell. The other two, Exterminate and Distract, are specifically outside what a Cantrip SHOULD be able to do...but since they're existing 1st Edition Cantrips, they're fine, as are many other examples, like Change, Present, and Mute.
If you're playing parlor tricks that have NO lasting effect and will disappear as soon as you're done (it's magic, so logic does NOT apply -- locks WILL lock themselves back up, etc), then you get the long duration. I actually think a TURN per level is quite generous, especially if you compare with the FIRST level Prestidigitation. It's almost as if the 2nd Edition write-up was written by a hack that wasn't very familiar with the rules and all the various other spells (*mock gasp*). So if you wanna make little smoke puffs and flashes that have NO chance of doing anything but making naive children or illiterate dullards clap, use this version, but if there's ANY game effect, it's one shot or use the SECOND level spell Pyrotechnics. Again, examples of much more focused, higher level spells.
Cantrip is the Swiss Army Knife spell. I've actually thought about its uses MANY times (Kara was my character as is Dante) -- the FIRST level spell Cantrip is basically a little Wish. You can call any specific effect you want. Style your hair, recolor your skin, unlock a door, light a torch, unspill a potion, make a person/horse/elephant/dragon disappear, distract a guard (via Distract OR Mouse OR Bee OR Spider OR Buzz OR Smokepuff OR...) as well as trigger a car alarm, cause a jackpot, cheat at craps, win at poker (Change the card), and steal ANYTHING that fits in your hand (Palm) or is in a modern jewelry display case (Present). There are a million more uses as well.
David Walters How about exterminate? Would one cast let you clear a barn, or would you need multiple casts?
David Christopher Mohr Multiple casts cuz you're killing multiple things, although a blanket full of fleas should be one zap, I'd think (with my human-centric bias
David Walters So in this case, it's way worse than the individual cantrip.... An apprentice would be hard pressed to keep an real area clear of vermin unless the area grew with the caster level. 10' square per level? What's the area of effect?
David Christopher Mohr Exterminate:
When this cantrip is used, the caster may kill a small pest such as a
fly, mouse, rat, beetle, or the like. It is useful for indoor and outdoor...See More
David Christopher Mohr Please note, this is also known as the "morning after" spell...
David Christopher Mohr (1 hp or less)
David Walters So basically - permanent effect and the cantrip spell is over. So cleaning is a single use if it zaps dirt in an area or lasts for concentration if it's more like the unseen hand moving a rag around?
David Christopher Mohr Basically. I would be a little liberal about spells like Clean, Chop, Polish, etc cuz their parameters are vague. I'd be cool letting someone clean a whole drawer of silverware, one item at a time, using Polish or to chop all the ingredient for a soup, one at a time, with Chop, or to clean an entire floor, one part at a time, using Clean.
David Walters Fair enough.
At the last game, we had a dispute over how the FIRST LEVEL spell Cantrip should work. Here's my logic...
If you're making a real, tangible, long-lasting change to the world (unlocking a door, recoloring a person, disappearing, killing a hamster, distracting someone from combat) then one spell is ONE USE. Technically, you've already exceeded the mandates of the spell (can't do damage or affect combat) and the duration will remain after you're concentrating. Moreover, let's compare actual, targeted spells and their parallel effects...Unlock vs Knock is SECOND level and can only undo TWO locks on a SINGLE portal (no more). Color vs Color is FIRST level and lasts indefinitely (instead of a month). Hide vs Invisibility is SECOND level and while it lasts without concentration, it's also a single, focused spell, not a do ANYTHING utility spell. The other two, Exterminate and Distract, are specifically outside what a Cantrip SHOULD be able to do...but since they're existing 1st Edition Cantrips, they're fine, as are many other examples, like Change, Present, and Mute.
If you're playing parlor tricks that have NO lasting effect and will disappear as soon as you're done (it's magic, so logic does NOT apply -- locks WILL lock themselves back up, etc), then you get the long duration. I actually think a TURN per level is quite generous, especially if you compare with the FIRST level Prestidigitation. It's almost as if the 2nd Edition write-up was written by a hack that wasn't very familiar with the rules and all the various other spells (*mock gasp*). So if you wanna make little smoke puffs and flashes that have NO chance of doing anything but making naive children or illiterate dullards clap, use this version, but if there's ANY game effect, it's one shot or use the SECOND level spell Pyrotechnics. Again, examples of much more focused, higher level spells.
Cantrip is the Swiss Army Knife spell. I've actually thought about its uses MANY times (Kara was my character as is Dante) -- the FIRST level spell Cantrip is basically a little Wish. You can call any specific effect you want. Style your hair, recolor your skin, unlock a door, light a torch, unspill a potion, make a person/horse/elephant/dragon disappear, distract a guard (via Distract OR Mouse OR Bee OR Spider OR Buzz OR Smokepuff OR...) as well as trigger a car alarm, cause a jackpot, cheat at craps, win at poker (Change the card), and steal ANYTHING that fits in your hand (Palm) or is in a modern jewelry display case (Present). There are a million more uses as well.
David Walters How about exterminate? Would one cast let you clear a barn, or would you need multiple casts?
David Christopher Mohr Multiple casts cuz you're killing multiple things, although a blanket full of fleas should be one zap, I'd think (with my human-centric bias
David Walters So in this case, it's way worse than the individual cantrip.... An apprentice would be hard pressed to keep an real area clear of vermin unless the area grew with the caster level. 10' square per level? What's the area of effect?
David Christopher Mohr Exterminate:
When this cantrip is used, the caster may kill a small pest such as a
fly, mouse, rat, beetle, or the like. It is useful for indoor and outdoor...See More
David Christopher Mohr Please note, this is also known as the "morning after" spell...
David Christopher Mohr (1 hp or less)
David Walters So basically - permanent effect and the cantrip spell is over. So cleaning is a single use if it zaps dirt in an area or lasts for concentration if it's more like the unseen hand moving a rag around?
David Christopher Mohr Basically. I would be a little liberal about spells like Clean, Chop, Polish, etc cuz their parameters are vague. I'd be cool letting someone clean a whole drawer of silverware, one item at a time, using Polish or to chop all the ingredient for a soup, one at a time, with Chop, or to clean an entire floor, one part at a time, using Clean.
David Walters Fair enough.